Kittie Doswell Interview–Roland Kirk Blindfold Test & Interview [transcript]

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:12:11 Leonard Feather: Well. Yeah. Well, now, when is your birthday?

00:00:12:14 - 00:00:13:11 Kittie Doswell: April 14th.

00:00:13:13 - 00:00:18:14 Leonard Feather: Oh, I missed that. I was I meant to apologize for that. I think I was out of time with the San Francisco that week.

00:00:18:15 - 00:00:19:22 Kittie Doswell: Sorry.

00:00:19:24 - 00:00:20:21 Leonard Feather: Did you have a good party?

00:00:20:22 - 00:00:22:22 Kittie Doswell: Oh, wonderful.

00:00:22:25 - 00:00:24:05 Leonard Feather: April 14th, 19.

00:00:24:05 - 00:00:26:05 Kittie Doswell: 39.

00:00:26:07 - 00:00:29:05 Leonard Feather:

1. My goodness, you were 23.

00:00:29:07 - 00:00:30:10 Kittie Doswell: That’s right.

00:00:30:12 - 00:00:31:05 Leonard Feather: Where were you born?

00:00:31:12 - 00:00:33:28 Kittie Doswell: In Houston.

00:00:34:01 - 00:00:37:19 Leonard Feather: what was you up your family? and interested in music? Oh.

00:00:37:21 - 00:00:40:16 Kittie Doswell: Well, my mother’s a pianist. And my father too.

00:00:40:23 - 00:00:42:00 Leonard Feather: Oh, really? Professionally?

00:00:42:04 - 00:00:47:15 Kittie Doswell: No. Mother plays in church, and my father did a little professional.

00:00:47:17 - 00:00:48:15 Leonard Feather: But he was still living.

00:00:48:21 - 00:00:50:08 Kittie Doswell: Oh, yes.

00:00:50:11 - 00:00:55:24 Leonard Feather: But he’s not. No. Do you have any other brothers and sisters?

00:00:55:26 - 00:01:00:20 Kittie Doswell: One little sister. Six. Oh that’s all.

00:01:00:22 - 00:01:03:16 Leonard Feather: So how did you first start singing.

00:01:03:18 - 00:01:06:28 Kittie Doswell: Well I started in church then young.

00:01:07:00 - 00:01:09:00 Leonard Feather: What church was.

00:01:09:02 - 00:01:28:15 Kittie Doswell: Hill Zion. At home in Houston. And all my life I sang in church and then when I got to school, when I started school, I started in the Glee club. In school. Elementary, high school. And even in college I sang in the choir.

00:01:28:17 - 00:01:29:17 Leonard Feather: What college was the.

00:01:29:20 - 00:01:32:20 Kittie Doswell: University of Texas in Austin.

00:01:32:23 - 00:01:39:02 Leonard Feather: Was that the mailman?

00:01:39:05 - 00:01:40:18 Leonard Feather: a building house next door.

00:01:40:20 - 00:01:42:01 Kittie Doswell: And there.

00:01:42:03 - 00:01:44:23 Leonard Feather: University of Texas. What year did you go there?

00:01:44:26 - 00:01:47:15 Kittie Doswell: 57 to 59.

00:01:47:17 - 00:01:48:07 Leonard Feather: Oh, I see it.

00:01:48:13 - 00:01:52:06 Kittie Doswell: And then I came out here,

00:01:52:09 - 00:01:54:26 Leonard Feather: Nope. You’re majoring in physical therapy.

00:01:54:28 - 00:02:03:04 Kittie Doswell: Really? What’s been there’s maybe a licensed physical therapist but not you know.

00:02:03:06 - 00:02:05:14 Leonard Feather: when did you start singing professionally during that time.

00:02:05:14 - 00:02:13:24 Kittie Doswell: No, no, I only started when I came out here. and I came out here in January of 60.

00:02:13:26 - 00:02:17:19 Leonard Feather: Oh it’s been quite recently.

00:02:17:21 - 00:02:23:20 Kittie Doswell: And I was at it six months or even, but I really.

00:02:23:23 - 00:02:25:05 Leonard Feather: How’d you happen to start.

00:02:25:08 - 00:02:37:10 Kittie Doswell: Well I started going around to the talent and one talent show led to the next. I just got a bug for it. Yeah.

00:02:37:12 - 00:02:41:05 Leonard Feather: And what was the first actual job you had then.

00:02:41:07 - 00:02:48:21 Kittie Doswell: no I worked for a week as a replacement at the Brass Rail yard on 53rd and Broadway.

00:02:48:22 - 00:02:49:25 Leonard Feather: Oh yeah.

00:02:49:28 - 00:02:58:27 Kittie Doswell: Yeah. That was my first job. And then I did a few, things out of the star system. I’ve been.

00:02:58:29 - 00:03:00:22 Leonard Feather: Yeah. And did a.

00:03:00:22 - 00:03:08:19 Kittie Doswell: Couple things up there. But then my first really steady job was at the night.

00:03:08:22 - 00:03:10:12 Leonard Feather: Yeah. When did you start there.

00:03:10:15 - 00:03:23:05 Kittie Doswell: I started there last February. Yeah. Last year. It was a long run. Yeah. Almost a year and a half.

00:03:23:12 - 00:03:25:16 Leonard Feather: And you had a day job at the same time.

00:03:25:18 - 00:03:31:08 Kittie Doswell: But was that working. Well I was working in car wash. On weekends mostly.

00:03:31:11 - 00:03:32:17 Leonard Feather: have you given that up man.

00:03:32:20 - 00:03:38:06 Kittie Doswell: Yeah. Bother with it.

00:03:38:08 - 00:03:42:06 Leonard Feather: Well when did the missile name start. Was up. Your brother.

00:03:42:09 - 00:03:51:25 Kittie Doswell: That was his idea. Well I mean some I do. A lot of people don’t even know my name. Know me by.

00:03:51:25 - 00:03:55:03 Leonard Feather: That. Yeah. That was like.

00:03:55:05 - 00:04:00:11 Kittie Doswell: He’s a kid. He does well and some people and they, they doesn’t, doesn’t ring a bell because they miss on it.

00:04:00:14 - 00:04:05:05 Leonard Feather: Yeah. You actually should tell reality is that too in the publicity because I think it’s very good.

00:04:05:06 - 00:04:07:01 Kittie Doswell: It’s using.

00:04:07:03 - 00:04:11:23 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:04:11:25 - 00:04:17:28 Leonard Feather: Have you, listen to anybody particular? I mean, you’ve been. Somebody calls you a female Ray Charles.

00:04:18:01 - 00:04:19:06 Kittie Doswell: Well, he is my idol.

00:04:19:07 - 00:04:21:06 Leonard Feather: Yeah, well, I would imagine he.

00:04:21:09 - 00:04:30:25 Kittie Doswell: I’ve always. I’ve always enjoyed him. From as far back as I can remember really. He’s he’s actually the only blues singer that I really like.

00:04:30:27 - 00:04:38:03 Leonard Feather: You know. And what other singers if you can understand it all.

00:04:38:06 - 00:04:47:26 Kittie Doswell: I don’t know I kind of like that and said like some of the things he does. Yeah. And and I guess. Very well.

00:04:47:29 - 00:04:50:00 Leonard Feather: I guess.

00:04:50:03 - 00:04:59:29 Kittie Doswell: Everybody does. Yeah. And Lots of the recent people are like Nina Simone.

00:05:00:03 - 00:05:04:17 Leonard Feather: And do you play anything by the way.

00:05:04:19 - 00:05:23:08 Kittie Doswell: I used to play a little piano, but at the time that I was taking music, I wasn’t interested in piano, I was interested in the wind instruments. That was during the time I was in high school. Oh yeah. And, I was playing trumpet in the high school band. No, really, I haven’t done that since I left high school.

00:05:23:10 - 00:05:24:17 Kittie Doswell: I guess it’s the high.

00:05:24:19 - 00:05:26:05 Leonard Feather: At least it shows you a little about it, I guess.

00:05:26:09 - 00:05:28:05 Kittie Doswell: Yeah, I know that. Oh, yes, I can read.

00:05:28:05 - 00:05:33:19 Unknown Speaker: Music, I know, I know music. Yeah. So that.

00:05:33:21 - 00:05:42:15 Kittie Doswell: And you know, when I was taken, when I was taking piano lessons, I learned a lot of theory and stuff. Yeah. And that was what bugged me because I didn’t like it. I want to just go ahead and play.

00:05:42:22 - 00:05:43:03 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:05:43:09 - 00:05:51:01 Kittie Doswell: And go through all this other stuff and then didn’t want to do it. My mother always wanted me to play because she played.

00:05:51:03 - 00:05:51:23 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:05:51:25 - 00:06:05:16 Kittie Doswell: So she wanted me to take music, and I did for a couple of years off and on. I just wouldn’t have. I could have done it, you know. But at the time, I just wasn’t interested.

00:06:05:18 - 00:06:13:25 Leonard Feather: How many sides have you made so far? You got four records. Was it long that.

00:06:13:27 - 00:06:15:05 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Easy.

00:06:15:07 - 00:06:22:23 Leonard Feather: Oh I think I got four. Yeah. Well that’s fine. I don’t have them all here but I’ve had them all.

00:06:22:24 - 00:06:31:12 Kittie Doswell: What about the first one? Hold on, hold on. You can. One, two.

00:06:31:15 - 00:06:41:24 Leonard Feather: Three, four. Yes. You may need hands on again. Yeah. It’s not easy.

00:06:41:27 - 00:06:45:11 Leonard Feather: let me see the. Mesodum.

00:06:45:12 - 00:06:52:17 Unknown Speaker: That’s a good one. Well hold on.

00:06:52:20 - 00:06:58:14 Leonard Feather: What does the word soul means to you. Feeling.

00:06:58:17 - 00:07:05:11 Kittie Doswell: Being able to express the way you feel that people feel. Try to make the people feel what you feel.

00:07:05:14 - 00:07:24:13 Leonard Feather: Yeah. Although it’s come to. It’s come to mean lately something a little more specialized. You know, when you say soul music, you just. You don’t mean anything that people can feel because you can say that about, Duke Ellington, you know. Yeah. Certainly is not what we call soul music or almost anybody.

00:07:24:15 - 00:07:33:12 Kittie Doswell: So, it has some deeper emotional type thing. Yeah.

00:07:33:14 - 00:07:36:27 Leonard Feather: I think, as it’s used now, I think the term applies very well.

00:07:36:28 - 00:07:45:12 Unknown Speaker: Or what you have anyway. Very effective.

00:07:45:15 - 00:07:47:15 Unknown Speaker: I may not be able to express it, but that’s what.

00:07:47:15 - 00:07:57:08 Leonard Feather: I do when I was thinking about my name on it. Yeah, sure. Well, it’s funny that nobody else has thought of using that name because it’s so logical.

00:07:57:10 - 00:08:01:14 Unknown Speaker: Yeah.

00:08:01:16 - 00:08:02:19 Unknown Speaker: Well, let’s see one of.

00:08:02:19 - 00:08:09:22 Kittie Doswell: Those things so obvious, it’s looked over. Yeah. So.

00:08:09:25 - 00:08:19:16 Leonard Feather: I’d like to see, I’m going to try to get some of the record company people to come into the club, and, it much easier to get them into the band hall, which is in Hollywood. You know.

00:08:19:16 - 00:08:20:07 Kittie Doswell: Yeah.

00:08:20:09 - 00:08:36:05 Leonard Feather: And I have no excuse not to. So I’ll keep in touch and I’ll try to get some good people down that Friday. Or if you if you feel you got to be nervous first night. Oh, no, I don’t see I don’t think, you know, you weren’t nervous that night. anytime that I’ve heard you. As a matter of fact.

00:08:36:07 - 00:08:56:20 Kittie Doswell: That’s that’s that’s the one thing I don’t have trouble trouble with. Even when I first started working down here the night I was with my first real job. Yeah, I wasn’t I wasn’t a bit nervous. I mean, something that, if you’ve got one that I like to do, and then I feel that I do. Well and I get confidence in what I do.

00:08:56:20 - 00:08:59:20 Kittie Doswell: So that one I was reasonably nervous.

00:08:59:22 - 00:09:03:25 Leonard Feather: What is your range? You have a really powerful range. Hello. There you go.

00:09:03:27 - 00:09:09:27 Unknown Speaker: Oh, I can go as low as,

00:09:10:00 - 00:09:23:02 Kittie Doswell: I can I was go in there.

00:09:23:05 - 00:09:28:29 Leonard Feather: fine. And, why’d you go?

00:09:29:02 - 00:09:41:29 Kittie Doswell: Well, when my voice is clear, my voice is clear. I can go to the other, the flat on the other side. And, when my voice is clear and it’s not too big.

00:09:42:01 - 00:09:46:05 Kittie Doswell: Interesting.

00:09:46:08 - 00:10:04:21 Kittie Doswell: I got a lot of practice with my range in my high school. Big club, because, I sang. My voice really is contralto. Yeah, but sometimes I don’t made my my, Glee club instructor always had me to be the guinea pig. You know.

00:10:04:21 - 00:10:12:22 Unknown Speaker: I always had to sing the part or the different sections, you know? Yeah. Hoochie. Bring us a new piece of music. She give it to me.

00:10:12:24 - 00:10:13:22 Kittie Doswell: Yeah. That was about the only.

00:10:13:22 - 00:10:23:14 Unknown Speaker: One on the bus you could read. Yeah. She then made the music and let me go through the the brand apartment soprano section that I have to go through the alto part. Yeah, and go to the tenor.

00:10:23:14 - 00:10:27:17 Kittie Doswell: But that’s the bass part. But I have the long.

00:10:27:20 - 00:10:28:15 Leonard Feather: I can see how you could.

00:10:28:15 - 00:10:35:14 Unknown Speaker: Be the only one to do it. Then. That’s great.

00:10:35:17 - 00:10:38:09 Unknown Speaker: And all the time.

00:10:38:11 - 00:10:39:09 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: The alto saxophone.

00:10:39:09 - 00:10:54:02 Unknown Speaker: Always have their band down pat before anybody else. Would you put the music down memorizing both, and the other two just about learned it. I look at.

00:10:54:04 - 00:10:56:03 Leonard Feather: How long this show expect to keep you in, though.

00:10:56:03 - 00:11:03:02 Unknown Speaker: As I said, yeah, your contract has been up for four weeks. That’s a good start.

00:11:03:04 - 00:11:22:18 Leonard Feather: I’m going out with Shelley tomorrow. We’re going to, lecture thing at the University of San Diego. Shelley’s driving me down there cold, having a little concert with student musicians. And we’re supposed to be judging the concert or something. Shelley, man, and Shorty Rogers and myself. I’ll go down there together. So I’ll probably be talking about your fellow artist plans.

00:11:22:22 - 00:11:37:26 Leonard Feather: but, I would imagine that if you do as well as I expect you to do, you’ll probably want to keep you in there for a long time. Well, I hope so. Or, of course, if Ruth prices play folds in a hurry, you may be obligated to bring her back. But I doubt that, she’s been a long time anyway, then.

00:11:37:29 - 00:11:57:07 Leonard Feather: And Helen, I just. I love some Helen Humes. A couple of weeks ago. She’s in Australia. She did have a wonderful time. She’s in two jobs, from a nightclub to a hotel. And, she says that she doesn’t know when should be back. She’s supposed to go to Japan after that. And all over the place. She was in Hawaii for 2 or 3 months, so she won’t be around for a while.

00:11:57:10 - 00:12:04:18 Leonard Feather: I think, Probably work out very well for you. and that’s a real nice place.

00:12:04:18 - 00:12:05:23 Kittie Doswell: You know it is, I like it.

00:12:05:25 - 00:12:13:11 Leonard Feather: I get the people in there that know what’s going on. It’s a hipper audience than almost any other place in town. So it should be great as.

00:12:13:12 - 00:12:14:27 Kittie Doswell: A very appreciative audience, too.

00:12:14:28 - 00:12:16:18 Leonard Feather: What are you going to rehearse, or have you.

00:12:16:21 - 00:12:22:06 Kittie Doswell: I have been here. I was last night. I was asking them, what was I going to rehearse? Rudy said.

00:12:22:09 - 00:12:33:25 Leonard Feather: Tomorrow. Yeah, he told me, tell me. But I didn’t get it. Well, I think yeah. I’ll ask you a question again. where is the University of Texas?

00:12:33:28 - 00:12:49:25 Kittie Doswell: That’s okay. In Austin. So the first the first white college to be integrated there in Texas when school was integrated, about 53 of 54, I believe, and then in 55, the integrated the undergrad school.

00:12:49:27 - 00:12:50:27 Leonard Feather: What year did you go there?

00:12:50:28 - 00:12:51:29 Kittie Doswell: 57.

00:12:52:02 - 00:12:54:17 Leonard Feather: How many students they have in?

00:12:54:19 - 00:13:07:05 Kittie Doswell: They had about 150, 200. And the campus was many people on that campus.

00:13:07:08 - 00:13:32:08 Kittie Doswell: I don’t know, but it was we were a very small group that is our group compared to the whole campus. This is a 75 acre campus. It’s a old. Yeah, right. Big school and a wonderful school to no trouble and a ball. That’s wonderful. Everything on campus was open to everybody. Except, of course, the dormitories for the girls.

00:13:32:16 - 00:13:43:05 Kittie Doswell: The girls dormitories weren’t integrated at the time I was there, but the boys were, And I think now the girls dorms are integrated.

00:13:43:07 - 00:13:44:17 Leonard Feather: You know, for Texas, it’s not.

00:13:44:17 - 00:14:03:26 Kittie Doswell: Bad because one of the girls that I have that graduated with me is, Would you. I got a big wheel in the in the in the student government. yeah. She right up about her in the seat in the CPI magazine here about three months ago. Three, about three, four page. Right. A picture’s now full spread on it.

00:14:03:28 - 00:14:18:08 Kittie Doswell: Yes. It just she she was valedictorian of the class, now salutatorian. She beat me out about three point. That became resolved. Well.

00:14:18:10 - 00:14:20:26 Leonard Feather: Can job as you give up after two years lack of funds.

00:14:20:29 - 00:14:24:13 Kittie Doswell: Yeah.

00:14:24:15 - 00:14:27:12 Leonard Feather: Well, you can still go back there someday. Maybe.

00:14:27:15 - 00:14:44:20 Kittie Doswell: well, I don’t particularly care whether I go back there, but I didn’t go back. I yeah, I, I’ve always wanted to go to UCLA. I wanted to come out here. Yeah, but, I really didn’t have to come out here, go somewhere. I just. I didn’t want to go to Texas Southern. It’s right there in Houston.

00:14:44:20 - 00:14:47:24 Kittie Doswell: I wanted to get away from Houston real well. Yeah, I’ve been there all my life.

00:14:47:24 - 00:14:49:03 Leonard Feather: Is your family still away?

00:14:49:03 - 00:14:50:19 Kittie Doswell: Yes, they’re still there.

00:14:50:22 - 00:14:52:13 Leonard Feather: Well, you have a daughter there.

00:14:52:15 - 00:15:05:07 Kittie Doswell: Trevor. Noah, my son is out here with son. Oh, yes. I went to Houston to get him in November last year. He’s out here with me now. It’s three years old.

00:15:05:10 - 00:15:07:12 Leonard Feather: Oh, you had him one year in college.

00:15:07:14 - 00:15:11:06 Kittie Doswell: I had him in 58.

00:15:11:09 - 00:15:24:06 Unknown Speaker: Oh, yeah.

00:15:24:08 - 00:15:37:17 Unknown Speaker: Well, I think the next thing to do is, let me get all those photographs and, start getting a few things going, all right? Yeah. Good.

00:15:37:19 - 00:15:43:08 Leonard Feather: Yeah. Do you think the strings, particularly. And the.

00:15:43:11 - 00:15:54:17 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: No, I just don’t hear, I don’t hear if maybe if they were done it in five, four, some with the same beat, maybe I would have got the feeling.

00:15:54:17 - 00:16:05:12 Unknown Speaker: That I don’t hear none. But the feeling of. Strictly and just rock and roll. You. Yeah.

00:16:05:14 - 00:16:09:15 Leonard Feather: Have you heard the his group do other things have come closer to.

00:16:09:18 - 00:16:24:11 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Oh, yeah, I heard his group in person. He worked at the village gate with, and a stretcher and do some things and, really give it a feeling. And it looked like they could make a record like that. Yeah, I’ll push that.

00:16:24:13 - 00:16:32:27 Leonard Feather: Yeah, yeah. Well, I that play do it. I mean, it’s not typical because I thought it was a string section on although they don’t do very much.

00:16:32:27 - 00:16:42:16 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: But yeah. Yeah I heard the string. But do you sound like the, you know, these strings and be behind the quartet something. That’s where you sound me.

00:16:42:18 - 00:16:47:26 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. And that must. Yeah.

00:16:47:26 - 00:16:51:18 Leonard Feather: Well, once start.

00:16:51:21 - 00:17:01:02 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: I say two to.

00:17:01:04 - 00:17:08:05 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: I don’t really know a sound like, sound of Peanut Finnegan Band or John Richards.

00:17:08:07 - 00:17:08:29 Leonard Feather: Johnny who?

00:17:09:02 - 00:17:09:29 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Johnny Richards.

00:17:10:05 - 00:17:11:20 Leonard Feather: Oh, yeah.

00:17:11:22 - 00:17:29:08 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: You. It sound like, you know, one of those style bands, and, I like I do like the arrangement. You did, is different from most big band. I mean, yeah, the regular big bands that you hear.

00:17:29:10 - 00:17:34:25 Unknown Speaker: Recorded right along now. Anyway.

00:17:34:27 - 00:17:35:19 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: The solos.

00:17:35:19 - 00:17:40:05 Unknown Speaker: On it, solos and.

00:17:40:08 - 00:17:48:13 Unknown Speaker: Chris may not much, but I like band. I don’t like to.

00:17:48:16 - 00:17:49:21 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: different effects to get.

00:17:49:22 - 00:17:56:26 Unknown Speaker: With the tambourine, the rhythm.

00:17:56:28 - 00:17:58:11 Leonard Feather: To get good and sound.

00:17:58:11 - 00:18:13:29 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: More like, you know, like a song, a feeling. And then, I’m more or less swinging, swinging sound or feeling and back. Yeah. Because they use a lot more.

00:18:14:01 - 00:18:14:20 Leonard Feather: They used to.

00:18:14:20 - 00:18:16:08 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Really use a lot more instruments.

00:18:16:08 - 00:18:26:23 Unknown Speaker: And, and that, but sound like, you know.

00:18:26:25 - 00:18:30:10 Leonard Feather: And you write it.

00:18:30:13 - 00:18:41:17 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Well, for, like I said, I like to sound in a band and effects, but I really, you know, different chord structures and. Yeah. Than I would like to.

00:18:41:17 - 00:18:46:07 Leonard Feather: Hear, you know, the, to recognize the thing.

00:18:46:09 - 00:18:49:05 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: I recognize the game, but I don’t know.

00:18:49:07 - 00:18:54:05 Leonard Feather: It’s the traditional, Russian folk song called meadow.

00:18:54:08 - 00:18:56:22 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: and what been, Well.

00:18:56:24 - 00:18:58:07 Leonard Feather: I can’t do this to you, right?

00:18:58:11 - 00:19:25:28 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Oh, yeah. Well, I really like to. Like I said, I like to the sound in a band. And for the different thing that they’re doing, but I don’t. It doesn’t really flip me because I don’t hear a difference. Construction. Yeah. So I give about three and a half stars from that. Yeah. I got a few minutes later because if you go send my on to I got.

00:19:25:28 - 00:19:42:07 Leonard Feather: A, newspaper column. It comes up the paper out here, and I would. I thought we could do a separate little piece for that, too, because I get a lot of material out of what you said. That. that’s on the liner notes of the different albums, you know, but, maybe you can add something to that.

00:19:42:09 - 00:19:44:06 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Okay. Could I play some of this for you?

00:19:44:08 - 00:19:50:28 Leonard Feather: Yeah, I’d like to hear some of this lead. That’s the one that, Jack Tracy says. Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s what I was.

00:19:50:28 - 00:19:53:11 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Got one else. I’d leave it here with you.

00:19:53:14 - 00:20:03:11 Leonard Feather: Well, I might be able to play it after you leave it. Bring it down here tonight because I’m going down to Joe Williams. Out me the renaissance. Oh, yeah. Passing by your place. Anyway, I would like to leave it with me.

00:20:03:13 - 00:20:04:05 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Okay. I promise.

00:20:04:05 - 00:20:04:18 Leonard Feather: To make it back.

00:20:04:18 - 00:20:10:18 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Tonight. Yeah, we’ll see, I promise. This fella supposed to come in from Athens because he didn’t get to get it on the tape. On the tape. Oh, I.

00:20:10:18 - 00:20:13:07 Leonard Feather: See, yeah, well, I’ll come by on my way to the Renaissance. I’ll be there.

00:20:13:07 - 00:20:14:05 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Early, you know? Okay.

00:20:14:10 - 00:20:16:27 Leonard Feather: For sure.

00:20:16:29 - 00:20:20:07 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: that other one is a thing I want you to hear, too, but. No, no, that.

00:20:20:07 - 00:20:20:16 Leonard Feather: Was a.

00:20:20:19 - 00:20:25:07 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: String quartet. Yeah, but don’t judge it too hard to critically cause this.

00:20:25:09 - 00:20:26:16 Leonard Feather: When was that done?

00:20:26:19 - 00:20:33:13 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Well, I just done it in a house, and we just had one mic, and, you know, it was the impromptu thing. Yeah.

00:20:33:13 - 00:20:36:07 Leonard Feather: Very impromptu. No fooling, etc..

00:20:36:09 - 00:20:43:13 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: And the fellows, like they said, they don’t, they can’t improvise at all. But we got them in the groove so much they start improvising itself.

00:20:43:18 - 00:21:03:11 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s interesting. You said Roland Kirk piano. No, that’s not right. Is it? Piano cottontail percussionist David Peoples? Yeah, it was cottontail. It was come to him. He’s a pianist. Oh, that’s his name. That’s not what you’re playing. Yeah. Who was play with his trio? He’s very enlightening. Is that right? Yes. He is.

00:21:03:13 - 00:21:04:22 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: This play a little bit interesting?

00:21:04:22 - 00:21:11:26 Leonard Feather: I’d like to hear. He’s very like we rehearsed last night.

00:21:11:28 - 00:21:26:14 Leonard Feather: Did it say on any of these interviews how you came to develop the technique? I know, I know about the story, about the horns. I think that’s been printed. But, how you came to decide. I’m trying with multiple technique. Seven. Yeah.

00:21:26:16 - 00:21:28:16 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Say about a dream. I had a.

00:21:28:16 - 00:21:34:25 Leonard Feather: Dream. Oh, yeah. I did another scene in somewhere.

00:21:34:27 - 00:21:37:15 Leonard Feather: Was that. It was that period on one of the albums?

00:21:37:17 - 00:21:39:20 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah, I was pregnant on.

00:21:39:22 - 00:21:55:21 Leonard Feather: I’m one of the albums. Yeah, I could take it out of there. Yes. well, if that’s the complete story, I’ll have to provide you with it. But, are you planning to try to go out on your own now and stay this way with your own group?

00:21:55:28 - 00:22:07:17 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah, I’m planning on using a rhythm section. because some, you know, I had one kind of group for, you know.

00:22:07:19 - 00:22:09:11 Leonard Feather: In Chicago.

00:22:09:13 - 00:22:19:16 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: where? Around Cleveland and Columbus. but I just felt it would be better to to get it live in New York, expand, you know, experience with another group.

00:22:19:19 - 00:22:20:25 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:22:20:27 - 00:22:23:27 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: So I did that, but I always did with my own group.

00:22:23:29 - 00:22:25:22 Leonard Feather: How long were you with Mingus?

00:22:25:24 - 00:22:26:26 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Oh, about a month and a half.

00:22:27:04 - 00:22:27:14 Leonard Feather: Oh, that.

00:22:27:14 - 00:22:29:23 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: I’d say close to two months room.

00:22:29:24 - 00:22:34:00 Leonard Feather: Yeah, I’m sure it was an interesting experience.

00:22:34:02 - 00:22:44:01 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Oh, yeah, it was a little unusual. Yeah. Use unusual, interesting experience. But it was in.

00:22:44:03 - 00:22:47:11 Leonard Feather: Well, you should be able to stay on your own now.

00:22:47:13 - 00:22:52:11 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah, well, when I, you know, I went to Europe last year, you know.

00:22:52:13 - 00:22:58:09 Leonard Feather: Yes, I know, I read all about it. Was it for wrote Johann Baron? Yeah. Yeah, I know him well.

00:22:58:09 - 00:23:01:12 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: So even a like I said.

00:23:01:15 - 00:23:02:29 Leonard Feather: Which cities did you play?

00:23:03:02 - 00:23:13:02 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: I played in Germany and, part of Harlem. and I went to France, you know.

00:23:13:05 - 00:23:14:10 Leonard Feather: Did you play in Berlin?

00:23:14:13 - 00:23:19:08 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: No, I didn’t go to Berlin. even though, you know Frankfurt.

00:23:19:08 - 00:23:19:20 Leonard Feather: You must have.

00:23:19:20 - 00:23:24:02 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Been. Yeah. Frankfurt, in essence.

00:23:24:04 - 00:23:25:04 Leonard Feather: We in Baden-Baden.

00:23:25:04 - 00:23:26:19 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah, we did TV show.

00:23:26:26 - 00:23:33:20 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s Baron’s hometown. yeah. Yeah. You must have been a big hit over there. I mean.

00:23:33:23 - 00:23:40:10 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah, it was. I was surprised because, they wrote me and, you know, need to know.

00:23:40:12 - 00:23:42:23 Leonard Feather: Who did you have playing with you then? Just local groups.

00:23:42:26 - 00:23:45:14 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Well, I had Kenneth Clarke. Oh, yeah.

00:23:45:20 - 00:23:49:26 Leonard Feather: Section on most of the time. Yeah. That’s good.

00:23:49:28 - 00:24:09:08 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: But, even, like I said, even though Mingus thing was experience. But, prior then, then I had been always trying to keep in to some. Yeah. And I’d always been stand stayed working and getting different, different opportunities in television.

00:24:09:09 - 00:24:10:09 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:24:10:11 - 00:24:12:16 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: But that did help. You know.

00:24:12:18 - 00:24:17:27 Leonard Feather: I’m sure you didn’t have to hold up. How long were you over there? Oh, yeah.

00:24:17:29 - 00:24:22:05 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: I was over there about close to a month.

00:24:22:07 - 00:24:26:11 Leonard Feather: Did burnt book you director. Was it through some office or how did you get it.

00:24:26:13 - 00:24:28:08 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Well he, he booked me direct.

00:24:28:11 - 00:24:29:05 Leonard Feather: Oh I see, I.

00:24:29:10 - 00:24:31:18 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: See her man a.

00:24:31:21 - 00:24:32:20 Leonard Feather: While I was visiting here.

00:24:32:25 - 00:24:35:18 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah. In Chicago I was recording this day foreign.

00:24:35:20 - 00:24:48:21 Leonard Feather: Oh yes. And he heard us. I’m, I’m trying to get a little thing together to go to Japan. I would love to have you on if it for me work. oh. Yeah. Nothing is happening. I’m just trying to get.

00:24:48:26 - 00:24:49:05 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: I was.

00:24:49:12 - 00:25:13:20 Leonard Feather: Looking at, I was talking to somebody. Have a job. Places up the other day about it, and, there’s a possibility that it might, because I would. I’ve heard so many wonderful things about for people that have been there, you know, that I would go there if I could just get my roundtrip fare or not make a pay raise to the city is like, okay, well, then, yeah, I’ll let you know.

00:25:13:22 - 00:25:15:22 Leonard Feather: Is anybody, booking, you know.

00:25:15:24 - 00:25:22:18 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: No. See, I’m I’m type person like this man. Not I’m not out here, you know, trying to get $1 million.

00:25:22:20 - 00:25:23:28 Leonard Feather: No. What if you can just stay working?

00:25:23:28 - 00:25:30:14 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to stay working and keep a group, you know what I mean? but,

00:25:30:17 - 00:25:32:08 Leonard Feather: You should be able to do that.

00:25:32:11 - 00:25:33:26 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah. and.

00:25:33:28 - 00:25:42:26 Leonard Feather: I’d like to see you, do a couple of nights at Shelly Moon’s, too. That’s a good club. There’s a lot of musicians going there. Nice. Nice place. Have you been in there?

00:25:42:28 - 00:25:50:13 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah. I’ll sit in there. You just sit in. And Shelly was running, dude. but he said his manager had booked up a lot of people.

00:25:50:13 - 00:26:02:28 Leonard Feather: Yeah, I know they got a lot of people going in there and, different guys every night. Dexter works every, you know, every Tuesday now, Paul. Hard every Wednesday. And usually they have a guitar player in Shelly’s on the weekends.

00:26:03:01 - 00:26:14:15 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: And I’m not saying see my name since I’ve been here. Been going to that coming up in the union every week now. Somewhere to work. Yeah. And they feel I’m monopolizing a whole lot of gigs.

00:26:14:18 - 00:26:15:07 Leonard Feather: And okay.

00:26:15:12 - 00:26:17:18 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: That’s what they told. That’s what they said.

00:26:17:20 - 00:26:20:05 Leonard Feather: Well, do you have a your local card in here?

00:26:20:08 - 00:26:22:19 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: No, but I’m paying 10%. That’s always.

00:26:22:19 - 00:26:26:28 Leonard Feather: Nice. Yeah. So you’re not going to put on your card.

00:26:27:01 - 00:26:35:25 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: No, I don’t think so. I got a chance to work, back in New York. Pretty steady.

00:26:35:27 - 00:26:40:27 Leonard Feather: Oh, really? And just, how soon.

00:26:41:00 - 00:26:45:09 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Were before I left this? Yeah, I said in advance, but.

00:26:45:11 - 00:26:48:27 Leonard Feather: Oh, yes. And,

00:26:49:00 - 00:26:58:05 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Those those films, you know, start talking about working. Oh, they say they keep me, you know, keep me on a steady getting somewhere. Either there or somewhere else.

00:26:58:08 - 00:27:07:24 Leonard Feather: Yeah. Probably somewhere. I think I read something that’s some trouble with a five spot. They closed enough or something like that on Minor Crossing. I think it was the five spot. Yeah. After Campbell was.

00:27:07:24 - 00:27:10:12 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: That one was Campbell.

00:27:10:15 - 00:27:29:19 Leonard Feather: was it? No. Not cannibal. What am I talking about? I’m mixing, you know. No, the five spot. Here it is. It’s in the new job. It was closed by police auto after a minor bearing a false identification. Cop with seven to drink, James Moody and Freddie Red with their upon out of work. Joe, two remaining owner of the club, lost several thousand dollars and nothing happened to the young man.

00:27:29:21 - 00:27:36:08 Leonard Feather: Yeah, about that, but I’m sure it probably straightened out by. Oh yeah, they from, to go some other place.

00:27:36:11 - 00:27:40:12 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Okay, whatever his other place called for round.

00:27:40:19 - 00:27:45:12 Leonard Feather: And they opening it. Yeah. That opened up again. That’s right. So are you going to stay out here a few more weeks anyway?

00:27:45:15 - 00:27:52:02 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah. I’m, I’m not trying to stay out here for a couple more weeks as long as I can stay, you know, wait.

00:27:52:02 - 00:27:53:22 Leonard Feather: Until the weather clears up in New York.

00:27:53:24 - 00:28:01:23 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah. I get the advantage. If I get a good another good stead of getting us would stay out here another month. I mean, not, 3 or 4 weeks, you know.

00:28:02:00 - 00:28:14:20 Leonard Feather: Yeah, you can, Well, I mean, well, I got to jump in and see what you are. No, no, I don’t want you come down. You don’t take it that bad.

00:28:14:23 - 00:28:15:07 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Is that.

00:28:15:07 - 00:28:17:13 Leonard Feather: Bad? It just 1 or 2 sets a night?

00:28:17:15 - 00:28:19:03 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: No, I do two numbers. You sit.

00:28:19:04 - 00:28:21:05 Leonard Feather: Oh, I see, but,

00:28:21:07 - 00:28:25:29 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: I limited just, like, make on a Superman or something.

00:28:25:29 - 00:28:31:27 Leonard Feather: Yeah. Oh, that’s pretty well, anyhow, if you wouldn’t mind leaving this racket with me, you know, have a chance to listen to it later.

00:28:32:03 - 00:28:32:21 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Okay? Right.

00:28:32:23 - 00:28:52:27 Leonard Feather: Soon. Okay. And I’ll definitely bring that back right away. Okay. Should be very good. You got a nice two nice rhythm section to me is, let’s see. Got two different piano players and two to bass, but is that right, Charlie?

00:28:53:00 - 00:29:01:21 Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Yeah, but the thing that encouraged me and Hank Jones really got in witness. He double what was going on, you know.

00:29:01:26 - 00:29:23:03 Leonard Feather: Oh, he’s very good. Yeah. He’s.

00:29:23:05 - 00:29:44:24 Leonard Feather: Well, I don’t know if this is discussed in there with any of those pieces in the scrapbook, but, I imagine it is. But how did you ever get to to know the social and musical backgrounds of the fields you went into? I mean, how did you. What was that? Let me say this. Who was the first Negro you ever knew?

00:29:44:26 - 00:30:03:11 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Oh, Lordy, that’ll be pretty hard to. Pretty hard to figure out. I, you know, I grew up in a neighborhood in Detroit of people who were all migrants from Arkansas, Oklahoma, and someone who had come out to work in the auto plants, you know, and my parents were from Arkansas.

00:30:03:13 - 00:30:04:07 Leonard Feather: That was probably still.

00:30:04:10 - 00:30:25:28 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And we’re well, that’s my point. It was so isolated that, even a Catholic kid walking down the street was subject to being pointed out, you know? Yeah. I mean, it was just it was a white Protestant. everybody went to the same little, little clapboard church, you know, and everybody knew everybody. And that was it. You didn’t go outside of the circle at all.

00:30:26:00 - 00:30:52:05 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And, for some odd reason, I, was filled with a restlessness for this letter from this limited culture and, from a very, very early age. And I just, I remember saying regularly to my parents at the very minute I was old enough to get away from them, and make it out into the broad world and find out what was going on, you know, in these other areas of culture that that would be among the missing, you know, just be gone.

00:30:52:08 - 00:31:17:13 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And so, I that actually came true sooner than I thought, because I really since I learned to take the bus in Detroit, I get downtown and all around and I get very absorbed in, in Greek culture, for one is a very there’s a very tight little, very European Greek community there. I learned a lot about the music, in fact, a very nearly became a Greek folk singer.

00:31:17:16 - 00:31:38:10 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: I, met a marvelous old man who played and sang the old, old ballads, and he said, what a gas, you know, teach you these songs. You become the first blind, blue eyed Greek folk song. But any he he he left, you know, had to come up and he got TB or something, had to come out west and that ended there.

00:31:38:17 - 00:31:52:16 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: But I, I just, I was terribly interested in all kinds of music and all sorts of cultures always. And I studied singing and I, you know, before that I sang in every possible place and time.

00:31:52:19 - 00:31:54:07 Leonard Feather: From my age.

00:31:54:10 - 00:31:56:18 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Since I can remember, you know, and.

00:31:56:20 - 00:31:59:09 Leonard Feather: I mean, like 13, 14, 15, 16.

00:31:59:09 - 00:32:24:27 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Wow. No, I remember most vividly as the beginnings of, of really enjoying singing, sitting in this little Methodist Sunday school, you know, when I was about 4 or 5 and I really remember that, you know, and that it had bugged me when we had to sit there and sing through, you know, and singing the same, but that every now and then the the superintendent would do the thing where, you know, and said rooms that this and the other side sit that it would start to swing.

00:32:25:00 - 00:33:03:26 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And the first song I remember from that little scene was one that, that goes Hallelujah. Then the glory, the other side. Hallelujah. Yeah. And, hallelujah. Then the glory revive us, again. And then, later on in life, that very same tune with different lyrics of his sort of follow me along. Yeah. I, next time I consciously remember that tune was when I was all involved with folk music and, the labor movement in Detroit and heard the, the Hallelujah album, which was, of course, the depression version of it.

00:33:03:29 - 00:33:04:27 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And then,

00:33:04:29 - 00:33:08:26 Leonard Feather: What was the first blues that you either heard on records on in person?

00:33:09:01 - 00:33:20:26 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Well, when I was about 13, and this is it all having to do with my ability to ride the bus to downtown where there were, I’m looking for a cigaret.

00:33:20:29 - 00:33:24:18 Leonard Feather: Yeah, some of the.

00:33:24:20 - 00:33:56:12 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Yeah. there was a marvelous old reservoir of music called Al’s Record Mart. It was a tremendous kind of a barn down in the grubby back street downtown there. And they had, I’m going there. Immense piles of dusty records, all kind of scratchy, worn a lot of stuff of jukeboxes and things. They also had a whole lot of, heavy, one sided classical 78, you know, and at that time.

00:33:56:14 - 00:34:19:05 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: When I was 13, I was studying voice and, they had me sing lyric, you know, like high soprano sounds. and, well, I loved it because anything you do with the voice always fascinated me. So I was practicing how they. Maria, know those things, and. Yeah. then, I kept hitting this old record store with my nickels and dimes and buying garlic.

00:34:19:05 - 00:34:42:23 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Shorty. And and he does keep an, tomb and Hank and all those people. And while digging through the piles for those things that came on, you know, strange titles and, artists and started listening to those, and the very first blues I can remember ever hearing, and I still think it’s a gas. It was Piney Browns blues with Joe Turner, and Pete Johnson was the record of that.

00:34:44:07 - 00:34:58:21 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: it may not have been the first one I heard, but it’s the first one that stuck in my mind. I took that thing home. I paid a nickel for it, I guess I took it home, listen and listen. There was something about the aura of it. Just the whole. The. Wow, that’s too much, you know? And,

00:34:58:25 - 00:35:01:07 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And I started digging little grains.

00:35:03:20 - 00:35:42:07 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Why don’t you do. Right. And, a few other things like that. Those were. But my tastes were sobre. Then, of course, when you’re very young and everything is new to you, you know, you have a little bit of everything. So I had a great, great, huge bunch of little bits, have music going through my head and, and, I sang, seriously worked at trying to sing, a little operatic arias and and bits of oratorio and things until I was about 17, I guess, 16 or something.

00:35:42:09 - 00:36:09:11 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And, just about then I gave a little recital with a friend of mine. We put costumes and sang arias and for our family and friends and and somehow that seemed like the end of a chapter. I just after this little recital, I just said, well, that’s that and close the door on that. And almost simultaneously, I began to hear, sounds like the, various,

00:36:09:13 - 00:36:31:16 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Really topical songs. But I thought of them. We all thought of them as folk songs, you know, that had that were connected with, with a very exciting political times that were happening in which was right after the war, by that time in which, you know, there was a whole lot of connection in life between, in Detroit.

00:36:31:17 - 00:36:49:22 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: It was such a one industry town. Everybody, you know, is related in some way to the auto industry. so that all your friends and their fortunes depend on whether their fathers are working or not, or their husbands or their boyfriends are working, or whether it’s a layoff, whether there’s a strike. And pretty soon you get to be, very interested in the course of these things.

00:36:49:22 - 00:37:21:01 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And I had become quite interested in, in the course of the labor movement there and began to sing. we invited to sing for these various functions, picket lines and, big meetings of various sorts. And I found it’s a marvelous way to connect singing, which I always loved with people, which I loved. Yeah. And, pretty soon I began to find out there were more kinds of folk songs that were not having to do with anything current that were all that were interesting.

00:37:21:02 - 00:37:41:21 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And, then I began to, I remember I got a whole bunch of, records from people, Library of Congress records I borrowed out of the library and so forth, and I and somebody gave me a guitar and I, locked myself sort of in, in a friend’s apartment. I was living in a place that had no heat and no a record player.

00:37:41:23 - 00:37:55:04 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And so I went to, this friend’s house where they were while they were away at work all day long and just use the record machine and, listen to these things. And then I’d sit down, try to learn to play things, and try to learn to sing things. And did you?

00:37:55:06 - 00:37:58:14 Leonard Feather: So you’re completely self-taught. You didn’t, did you? By a tutor, I mean, I.

00:37:58:16 - 00:38:21:09 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Know, I know, I oh, I bought a, I bought a book with chords in it and I never saw anybody play because there was nobody around that I knew who was playing the guitar. So I, all I did for about three years was strum, strum, strum the chords, you know? And at last I happened to get out of town and mingle with some other folk singers by that time.

00:38:21:09 - 00:38:30:10 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And I saw that you could do them day to day. Bum rivers singing beginning or something. So I began experiment with those variations. And,

00:38:30:12 - 00:38:32:11 Leonard Feather: Did you read music or do you read me?

00:38:32:13 - 00:38:52:02 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Yeah, I do, I did lots of piano lessons as a kid. I, I remember I was eight years old. I said to my mother, the only thing I want is a piano. So she bought me an old piano, and I started taking lessons. And I worked hard at that for 4 or 5 years. But I found out that I was spending most of all my practice time since I could read it all, playing through songbooks and singing it.

00:38:52:02 - 00:39:08:29 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Oh, you know, playing this as soon as everybody was out of the house. I never did it when anyone was home, because I just want. This was my little thing, you know? Yeah. That’s it. Then sing through all these old books. So then finally one day it dawned on me. By the time I was about 12 or 13, that I should really be taking singing lessons and forget the piano lessons.

00:39:08:29 - 00:39:33:27 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: So I said, let’s change overs. That’s how that happened. I don’t read on the guitar at all. And, in fact, the guitar has developed very primitive fashion, has no connection with formal music as I know it. My other part of my brain, it’s just the it’s just another thing altogether. And, I’ve never been interested in, in, really sitting down, learning my scales on the guitar and everything.

00:39:33:29 - 00:39:36:01 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: That’s why I never learn to play melodies.

00:39:36:04 - 00:39:39:07 Leonard Feather: Get with a slide or any other singers I play guitar.

00:39:39:13 - 00:39:57:05 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: I’ve never done Joshua, and I think he’s terrible. You mean, and I phony. Phony. And I think is I think his music is terribly. Doesn’t swing at all. You know, he’s just making, making, use of the music as a vehicle for his personality. And,

00:39:57:08 - 00:40:02:26 Leonard Feather: Actually, that was a bad example of, too, is I should have said somebody else, but, I mean, you didn’t learn any guitar from any other.

00:40:02:29 - 00:40:06:12 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: I eventually I learned a few little things from, from brownie McGhee.

00:40:06:12 - 00:40:09:08 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s.

00:40:09:10 - 00:40:36:19 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: and, that’s about it. I actually, I since then have become occasionally very dissatisfied with my playing. I would like to hear more, you know, but, on the other hand, my main joy has always been singing, and I think, that’s why I haven’t bothered to cultivate the guitar playing anymore. As long as I can keep good time, that’s really all I’m, you know, interested in at this point, I, because when I want to play something more complicated, I feel it would hang me up in the singing to have to play a whole lot of chords.

00:40:36:19 - 00:41:04:26 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: You know? So I just put the guitar down with weights and take over the chording and, yeah. And I can concentrate entirely on the idea of the song and try to project that. I think it’s very important. In fact, if you notice, when I’m. Doing a whole program of stuff that the mightiest things are always done without guitar, because I feel I have to concentrate on the idea, the thought of the song, you know, not not the not the lyrics as such or the or what I’m going to do with the melody.

00:41:04:26 - 00:41:18:03 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: But but the thing itself, the thing you’re trying to project the, the feeling and so I guess probably in what I really like best is the acting. Well, it’s, it’s.

00:41:18:06 - 00:41:24:01 Leonard Feather: A nightclub act. Whether you conscious of it or not, it is an effect, an act.

00:41:24:04 - 00:41:34:10 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: I think the reason I sing is because I, I like the idea of being able to stimulate people to new thoughts and to,

00:41:34:13 - 00:41:35:27 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:41:36:00 - 00:41:52:27 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: new feelings, to make them aware of things that they may have taken for granted to, to move them, in other words. And if I couldn’t do it through singing, I’d find another way of doing it. But just happens that I since I’ve always liked singing, it’s been the most convenient way to wow Mr..

00:41:53:00 - 00:41:56:25 Leonard Feather: Research that you were doing on blue. What you’re going to write a book I have.

00:41:56:27 - 00:42:15:14 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Well, I found that, the thing that stimulated me to, to, to write a book was all of fascinating blues people in Chicago, and I found that, I just wasn’t able to spend enough time there to, to do the research. I wanted to do. sort of abandoned the country blues. Yes. I think it’s a wonderful thing.

00:42:15:15 - 00:42:15:26 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Did you read the.

00:42:15:26 - 00:42:21:13 Leonard Feather: New book which came out called Blues? Well, this morning, no. So it’s a book of blues lyrics with a lot of analyzes.

00:42:21:16 - 00:42:23:06 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: so did that.

00:42:23:09 - 00:42:28:13 Leonard Feather: the English Fellow. It was published in England originally. Yeah. Oliver. Paul. Oliver.

00:42:28:15 - 00:42:29:25 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Oh, he’s a good writer.

00:42:29:27 - 00:42:36:07 Leonard Feather: Yeah, it’s a very good book. You ought to read it. I reviewed it or did I? I reviewed it somewhere.

00:42:36:10 - 00:42:39:22 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Yeah, I have to read it because I, I, I think that this is subject.

00:42:39:27 - 00:42:43:18 Leonard Feather: So have you got enough material? I’ve ever published a book, or do you think you’re more or less.

00:42:43:21 - 00:43:02:15 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: I’m going to I’m going to kind of keep keep my, ear out for various things and keep collecting them. And maybe someday when I get around to the memoir stage, I’ll be able to do it. I do know I found, I mean, I thought at first that it would would be, you know, not as time consuming as I, as I ultimately see it would be to do the kind of book I’d like to do.

00:43:02:18 - 00:43:33:21 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: I thought, I thought at first that what I would do is just simply personality sketches, you know, kind of, tell some things about these people that hadn’t been told and, and try to connect each of them on a onto a whole chain of, of, you know, what the Chicago blues scene is and that it would be done with a, simply with a, with a good photographic portrait coupled with a, you know, a sense of that particular person and a couple of their best known songs.

00:43:33:21 - 00:43:42:26 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: That’s why I wanted to do it. I may still be able to do it sometime, but, well, so just now I’ve been to it too. Hung up getting going with some other projects.

00:43:42:29 - 00:43:48:11 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:43:48:13 - 00:44:08:04 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Yeah. A on. Well, when the, when the preposition first came from capital, but signing as an artist, with them, I was very dubious because, as you probably can judge by my sporadic recordings, I’ve been pretty fussy about, and not always successful in what I’ve done, you know?

00:44:08:04 - 00:44:09:12 Leonard Feather: So one shot.

00:44:09:14 - 00:44:26:19 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: The dud thing was actually, we had discussed an artist contract, and they. That’s what they offered me. But I, somehow there, there was a little hang up in getting it signed. I was, I guess I was out of town or something. And then I came back and recorded some of the stuff before we had gotten around to signing the contract.

00:44:26:21 - 00:44:48:03 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And in the process of that, I got a kind of an inkling that I wasn’t going to be happy there. So I asked for just a one shot thing because, and it turned out I was absolutely right, because what happened with that was that, first of all, Tom Mack was not, really, although he loved what I was doing one very badly himself to do an album with me.

00:44:48:03 - 00:44:51:06 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: He wasn’t quite sure that the hierarchy there would approve.

00:44:51:11 - 00:44:51:29 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:44:52:01 - 00:44:57:19 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: So it hung up the whole album. That’s why it became a sort of down the middle of the road, you know, neither this nor that kind of album.

00:44:57:22 - 00:44:59:29 Leonard Feather: Yeah, it really was sort of a nondescript ride.

00:44:59:29 - 00:45:21:21 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And that that was it. That was the whole, it was the reason that happened. Well, anyway, with with capital, I was very blunt in telling them that. I thought as far as I was concerned, they they did not make records I would buy, you know, that I owned gangs and records, but I’ve never since since I bought a ten inch Leadbelly record from another label.

00:45:21:21 - 00:45:56:00 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: I don’t think I’ve ever bought a Capitol record because it’s all, in the last few years, been far too slick and smooth and calculated and not enough jazz anywhere in the anything. You know, even with the so-called jazz singers who, when pulled on their label. I don’t feel there’s been jazz in those things. Yeah. And, I said, quite frankly, that if they intended to, to sign me was with the idea of turning me into another one of their stable of pop jazz singers, that I was not interested.

00:45:56:02 - 00:46:25:29 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And they assured me that, first of all, there had been a very serious discussion at the top level there about this this kind of, shotgun issuing of stuff and, an evaluation of the position they find themselves in now. And they that they have decided, that they’re going to eliminate a great deal of their quantity in favor of what they feel are just the the most.

00:46:26:02 - 00:46:27:07 Leonard Feather: take got what, ten? Great.

00:46:27:09 - 00:46:28:11 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: I know I will, too.

00:46:28:11 - 00:46:34:29 Leonard Feather: But once every year they’re going to cut down on, you know, and they can’t, because as long as I have people I want to sign, they’re going.

00:46:35:01 - 00:46:49:24 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Yeah, well, I found out one interesting thing, though, that the businessman, who presented me to them, finally, Curly Walter, he said he had he presented 23 people last year, and that I was the first one they accepted.

00:46:49:26 - 00:46:54:05 Leonard Feather: Oh, it’s quite possible, you know, but they have about 23 and I mean two.

00:46:54:07 - 00:46:55:24 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Right. Of course. Well, it’s, you know.

00:46:55:25 - 00:47:03:09 Leonard Feather: It’s a if every one artist, they still got a lot of artists. But I’m not trying to discourage you. I think, it could turn out very well.

00:47:03:13 - 00:47:12:10 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Well, anyway, their, their point was that they intended to start and a whole, a kind of back to it capital used to be sort of mood, you know.

00:47:12:12 - 00:47:18:27 Leonard Feather: It’s probably, I guess. So.

00:47:18:29 - 00:47:40:17 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Well, it anyway, they, they assured me that the reason they were signing me was because they, because they realized that I was presenting a different kind of music than these other people. They felt that the sound I had was, it was, was so unique that they would like to preserve it and that they had no intention of trying to slick me up and change me into something else.

00:47:40:17 - 00:47:41:01 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And that, well.

00:47:41:08 - 00:47:43:28 Leonard Feather: Isn’t the first release supposed to be the tapes in the club anyway?

00:47:44:00 - 00:47:45:29 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Yes, yes, probably will be.

00:47:46:05 - 00:47:48:21 Leonard Feather: A good start.

00:47:48:23 - 00:47:56:19 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: that may turn out to be the second release, because we’re going to do some studio things too, anyway. depends on which one we think is going to be the biggest, best one for the kick off.

00:47:56:25 - 00:47:57:16 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:47:57:18 - 00:48:07:04 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: But the, the choice of personnel and choice of tunes would be very largely left up to me. And there will be no such thing as a gang of fiddles unless I decide someday I want to use them, you know.

00:48:07:08 - 00:48:09:26 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:48:09:29 - 00:48:30:29 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: this is clearly understood before we start now. So I feel, you know that, And I don’t know, I don’t know. I’m, for a person who’s, currently, hasn’t got a gig or a record contract or anything I thought was pretty. Pretty. bold to be telling them that I really didn’t need them, you know, that if they weren’t going to do what I wanted, I didn’t want to mess with them.

00:48:30:29 - 00:48:49:16 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: But this is exactly true, because I feel it. I feel that, I do want to make music and I want to make is valid and, truthful in music as I can make know. And I’d like to record, I’d like to record for a big company with good distribution simply because that I feel at this point the public has so little to choose from.

00:48:49:18 - 00:49:08:16 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: Yeah. You know, that’s available widely that that differs in any way from what they can buy, you know. So I would like to be able to give the public that much of a choice. And, on the other hand, there would be absolutely no sense in my getting involved in the same old race that everybody else is in.

00:49:08:17 - 00:49:42:27 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: You know, because, something that, that, I’ve always made a point of trying to understand and remind myself of, every day, really is that, the usual American definition of success has no connection with my idea of success, you say? Because, just I mean, when you think of, you know, the average, especially Hollywood cat says success, he means that he’s got, you know, a big position and everybody knows his name, and he’s making, all the money he could possibly use.

00:49:43:00 - 00:50:04:12 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And, my definition, on the other hand, is to be able to be doing what you want to do, to be able to do it as comfortably as you can and as often as you can. And, to be getting across to your audience. b communicate with them back and forth and, to have the music send to you yourself, you know, that’s success.

00:50:04:14 - 00:50:13:12 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: And if I find that the music and the presentation of it and the exploitation of it is going to hang, hang up those goals, later.

00:50:13:16 - 00:50:13:28 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:50:14:04 - 00:50:26:18 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: You know, I would much rather, discover someday that I, that I had to make my living in some other way and just sing for fun than to have that then to have making a living with music every interfere with the fun of the music.

00:50:26:22 - 00:50:28:04 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:50:28:07 - 00:50:29:09 Unknown Speaker: Speaker: You know, well.

00:50:29:12 - 00:50:33:17 Leonard Feather: That’s an admirable attitude. And I.