Jack Elliott – Luther Henderson – Dave Liebman. Blindfold Test, April 9, 1984 [transcript]

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:06:00 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Oh. Are you on?

00:00:06:02 - 00:00:09:22 Leonard Feather: Yeah. You know, the song?

00:00:09:24 - 00:00:28:08 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Well, I think, I mean, I’m pretty sure it’s. I would almost say definitely sure it’s Lacey, except that I don’t know the record, so that makes me less than 100% sure, but I’m almost definite that that was Steve Lacey in what sounded like a monk tune. And then we were just speaking about monk, but I don’t know the tune either.

00:00:28:17 - 00:00:46:25 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: the trumpet player I couldn’t place, although it had reminiscences of cherry. except it wasn’t. It had some of the feeling of what cherry evokes, but it wasn’t continuous enough in the speech, like cadences and so forth in the trumpet, the actual way to play the trumpet. And I don’t think it was a pocket trumpet either. I’m not sure I was really listening to that.

00:00:46:27 - 00:01:08:28 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: The drummer could have been anybody, I think, could have been Frankie Dunlap type of many be Bob Taylor. but in general, what I like really, I love Lacy, and I think he’s a real bridge between bebop, and some sort of altered version of bebop. Not out on God, but the way he puts his actual eighth note lines together.

00:01:08:28 - 00:01:29:18 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And he does stick to eight notes for the most part. He rarely plays fast, and he places things rhythmically a little behind the time, a little ahead of the time. He plays with the time. And he’s definitely the thinking man’s play, a trying to take irregular ways to the same, same goal. He wants to take a circuitous path to get to, to get to the same point, which I respected him and I like a lot.

00:01:29:23 - 00:01:41:09 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And he’s a very consistently he plays the same way. I mean, this could be a recording from the 60s, as far as I know. I wouldn’t even know or even before I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t really know the date of it, but he would probably tell he sounds very much the same these days when he’s playing in that style.

00:01:41:11 - 00:01:49:14 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And, of course, he’s one of the major influences on soprano, although he’s never directly influenced me. Actually, I never really listen to him, for anything more than enjoyment.

00:01:49:14 - 00:01:55:16 Leonard Feather: But yeah, how would you rate it? three three. Good.

00:01:55:16 - 00:01:59:25 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And he’s good. Yeah. Good. No, it’s not good. Good. Yeah. There he is. Good.

00:01:59:27 - 00:02:01:15 Leonard Feather: Yeah, but we were absolutely right.

00:02:01:20 - 00:02:02:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Is it monk?

00:02:02:13 - 00:02:06:09 Leonard Feather: It was a monk tone. And it was indeed. What is even church?

00:02:06:11 - 00:02:07:14 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Maybe old record or.

00:02:07:16 - 00:02:10:05 Leonard Feather: Yes. Oh, he already did.

00:02:10:07 - 00:02:17:15 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s great to hear Jerry kind of just developing his stuff and just just start with his thing.

00:02:18:09 - 00:02:21:10 Leonard Feather: the others are Billy Higgins.

00:02:21:15 - 00:02:22:15 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: That’s what I was gonna say.

00:02:22:17 - 00:02:44:10 Leonard Feather: He was Adams and Carl Brown, and I would say Bill of San Francisco Holloway, which is another about two, I don’t know, not funny. And I think it was made. So some of it may, but I’ll have to look it up probably in the sometime in the fairly early 60s. Yeah. So this is a reissue of a long unavailable album originally released on New Jazz.

00:02:44:12 - 00:02:51:02 Leonard Feather: It’s now in prestige, so I would think you’re right. You know, just somewhere in the middle 60s, you can tell.

00:02:51:02 - 00:02:52:24 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s just a fiction.

00:02:52:26 - 00:02:55:10 Leonard Feather: Yeah, you can tell by the way they’re dressed. It’s really. Look at.

00:02:55:10 - 00:02:56:12 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: That. Stevie looks good.

00:02:56:12 - 00:03:04:23 Leonard Feather: Yeah. Oh that was I was surprised you guessed right away because it’s such an old record.

00:03:04:26 - 00:03:09:21 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Yeah, I don’t know this track and I don’t know Lacey’s recording discography so. Well, but he’s unmistakable, I guess.

00:03:09:22 - 00:03:16:07 Leonard Feather: So. Yeah.

00:03:16:10 - 00:03:23:07 Leonard Feather: Oh.

00:03:23:10 - 00:03:28:07 Leonard Feather: My.

00:03:28:09 - 00:03:34:09 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Oh.

00:03:34:12 - 00:03:54:02 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Oh.

00:03:54:04 - 00:03:58:10 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And.

00:03:58:12 - 00:04:15:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: He.

00:04:15:15 - 00:04:23:01 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: He.

00:04:23:04 - 00:04:34:08 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Goes.

00:04:34:10 - 00:05:41:28 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: He.

00:05:42:00 - 00:05:47:09 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: God.

00:06:00:16 - 00:06:06:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: He focused on, you know.

00:06:06:16 - 00:06:30:18 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Oh my God.

00:06:30:20 - 00:06:40:22 Leonard Feather: Mean.

00:06:40:24 - 00:06:46:09 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Me that you know.

00:06:46:12 - 00:07:25:16 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Yeah. Oh.

00:07:25:19 - 00:07:51:01 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You know.

00:07:51:03 - 00:07:58:25 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You.

00:07:58:27 - 00:08:17:07 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Can.

00:08:17:10 - 00:08:40:26 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Only.

00:08:40:28 - 00:08:52:06 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Bum bum. Bum bum.

00:08:52:09 - 00:08:56:21 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You.

00:08:56:23 - 00:09:03:11 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Mean.

00:09:03:13 - 00:09:13:14 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: So you.

00:09:13:17 - 00:09:21:11 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Think you. Me. You.

00:09:21:13 - 00:09:32:23 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Yeah.

00:09:32:26 - 00:09:55:00 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You.

00:09:55:02 - 00:10:23:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Yeah. Well, that is definitely, New York style jazz. And I say that meaning one way of the defining that is it’s drummer’s music. there’s drummers on that music in us. What we do in New York, I think you get you get the drum is really open rein to go crazy. And this guy definitely did. And little bombastic and that sound and the recording quality and actually the whole thing sound like more of a cassette from home session, jam session than an actual record.

00:10:23:20 - 00:10:38:18 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: although there were a lot of records that sound like jam sessions these days. But, that’s what I mean by New York music. Also the kind of a composition, a unison line with what we say. Just open time. I don’t think there was even maybe it was a tonal center, but I didn’t. I couldn’t really be sure of it because it was it was fleeting.

00:10:38:18 - 00:10:55:12 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: But yeah, but no real composition, and that’s fine. And that’s, again, New York influence, where a lot of people get together and just go, the soprano player. I’ll tell you what I like about everything was the abandonment, which is what I do like about the way we play back is there’s a certain energy, energetic, a meeting of the minds at a meeting of going for it.

00:10:55:12 - 00:11:13:05 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And it’s the process that is more important than the end result. But here, listening, of course, when you’re listening at home to a record, the end result is crucial. And in this respect, I think it falls short. first of all, it’s a piano player. it’s playing way too much. Left no space. His sound is a little thin to me.

00:11:13:05 - 00:11:45:00 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It sounds like a doubler, for my tasty tongue. Too much. Which gives it a little stiff quality. I don’t really like. And, it was, it was way. It was. Yeah, definitely influence of weight on soprano in that, in that tonguing approach of which I think only Wayne really brings off, which is a very kind of almost a staccato approach to a time playing, you know, now who it would be, I don’t know, but it could have been somebody like Branford Marsalis, who’s developing and still in a development stage, and Kenny Kirkland and even sounded like him on working with next week or somebody.

00:11:45:00 - 00:12:01:25 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: That’s who I but it really could have been, some really good students also. and that’s not a derogatory statement, but, that’s the way we teach them to play, you know, that kind of thing. So I would give that, two and a half stars, man. Two stars. When it the sound of it is kind of pretty horrible.

00:12:01:29 - 00:12:10:26 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s almost sounds like it’s not a meant to be a record, almost.

00:12:10:28 - 00:12:33:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Well, that’s that old stuff. And that’s the real, I guess, the root of the soprano tree. coming from basically Bouchet with the definitely with the, brutal, the sensitive, a brutal, a kind of a exaggerated vibrato, I know, with a shaved. I think I said that once. If I try to figure out what it was, it. It’s not quite the stomach, it’s not quite the throat.

00:12:33:15 - 00:12:48:07 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s some strange act of the internal organs which gets to the blood of that Bouchet guy. This guy is getting it more and more typical way. I think it might be Zoot Sims, because I’m not sure who else would play that style, and soprano could be any different, but I think he’s he would be a little bit more dated.

00:12:48:28 - 00:13:09:27 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Zoot also leads me to believe in musically because, it was it’s kind of bebop and swing at the same time. I mean, there’s a the use of eighth notes at times, but mainly like a lot of Apache O’s and little, little melodic figures, a lot of like a Prez kind of thing. When a melody takes precedence over the chords, he’s, not swinging is not in a hot and a real hard way, is not really the point of it.

00:13:09:27 - 00:13:27:21 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s more like kind of gliding over melodically. And of course, the rhythm section was suitable for that. And, I think it’s a very clarinet style, in fact, that like when he came back in after the piano solo, I said, did he switch the clarinet? has it the low register? It’s a really beautiful way to play the soprano.

00:13:27:21 - 00:13:54:26 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And, I mean, I could see why it was, at the beginning, it was the soprano sounded like that. I mean, a very vocal speech, like, thing, because you have a smaller mouthpiece than the tenor alto, and your inflections can be that much more, obvious by doing so little. And you get there for a lot of speech like type of things and slurs in a sense, a real breath in there, you know, and, I think, that’s, that’s a really beautiful style.

00:13:54:26 - 00:14:07:17 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And of course, Coltrane really changed that soprano because he really made a departure from that, playing more nasally, more like an oboe, more shinier, more, you know, eastern sound and so forth. I would give that three stars also for what it is. It’s very good.

00:14:07:20 - 00:14:08:23 Leonard Feather: We’re very good. As far as.

00:14:09:23 - 00:14:10:23 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: for what it is.

00:14:10:26 - 00:14:11:29 Leonard Feather: Good enough.

00:14:12:02 - 00:14:15:08 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It definitely it’s for what it is compared to everything else. I give it for the.

00:14:15:15 - 00:14:17:09 Leonard Feather: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

00:14:17:15 - 00:14:23:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It accomplishes its, goals.

00:14:23:15 - 00:14:44:22 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Well, again, I think it sounds like some students messing around. I hope it’s not our God. I mean, I don’t remember them. Well, know them using electric instruments, but they didn’t have their instruments. It just. It was very, together. It had no sense of organization. what is interesting. Well, first of the guitar intro was completely scattered, and its ideas, it was just it never stayed.

00:14:44:26 - 00:15:03:25 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It just danced around about 80 different ideas. First, from the sound of it, I thought it could have been Towner or, Abercrombie with my Vishnu. But then, of course, it didn’t have the intensity and the direction of thought that either of those guys usually has. So that I canceled on, I think this is, has it’s like what a lot of guys are doing in their attempt to do something.

00:15:03:25 - 00:15:21:04 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: What they think, I guess, is new, which is using elements of new wave, like a beat going on at a different time, and some electronics and kind of Wayne Shorter. And whether he plays that’s a pastiche of everything. Throw together. one thing that is interesting is the use, as far as the soprano goes, is the use of the soprano as a color istic instrument.

00:15:21:04 - 00:15:35:26 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Almost primarily, he was staying in upper register using long those high notes. Basically, he was a color source, which is very which is an interesting concept, and I think Wayne is responsible for that for sure. But of course, we can back it up with some music. And, on this one case of this one track, there wasn’t enough for me to even judge it.

00:15:36:01 - 00:15:37:20 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: it’s one star.

00:15:37:23 - 00:15:38:10 Leonard Feather: Okay?

00:15:38:12 - 00:15:49:03 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I have no idea what it is until I.

00:15:49:05 - 00:16:12:22 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Well, to me, it sounds like a tenor player or somebody w And the reason I say that is the, I mean, the ultimate test on a soprano, really on any of the saxophones. But definitely the soprano is. Let’s let’s put it this way. The test of the saxophone is sound was evenness throughout the registers and the high register being, having a full bodied sound.

00:16:12:25 - 00:16:31:26 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Yeah. And it’s certainly on a separate I mean, as the higher up you go in the register of the family of saxophones, the more crucial it becomes. And obviously and when it’s not that way and of course, the soprano being the up there at the top, it’s really apparent with somebody who’s not really in tune to the physical aspects of playing the soprano as opposed to another saxophone.

00:16:32:01 - 00:16:44:10 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It is a different, game, which is what I was, you know what it was for you before. It’s not really not so easy to switch it, feel as if you can be completely creative with it and have your, you know, play what you hear and not worry about technique.

00:16:44:10 - 00:16:44:28 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:16:45:00 - 00:17:03:04 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: So that leads me to that because this guy’s register was very thin and sad. Was that happening? Basically, the head was much better than the blowing. I thought it was, kind of an interesting little head, actually had some interesting mountain lion in and a couple little stops, and then when they go in, they sound like they’re kind of fall asleep against the changes and like, kind of watered down bebop.

00:17:03:04 - 00:17:11:09 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I, you know, not nothing that really thrilled me and and just dies. I have no idea who it could be. It could be a million guys. I really don’t know. Nothing distinctive at all to me.

00:17:11:12 - 00:17:15:10 Leonard Feather: Because you give it to to. Yeah. It was an Arab bloom.

00:17:15:12 - 00:17:18:23 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Jesus. I heard you play the.

00:17:18:26 - 00:17:22:16 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Because I heard her on any on an NJ record and she said excellent. That’s a good.

00:17:22:18 - 00:17:28:17 Leonard Feather: Yeah. And this is a level outline, right. I don’t know the other people. Maybe a little bit.

00:17:29:09 - 00:17:32:16 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Ralph, did somebody like Joe the person very close.

00:17:32:21 - 00:17:36:11 Leonard Feather: Yeah. I don’t.

00:17:36:13 - 00:17:38:15 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Know I do live.

00:17:38:23 - 00:17:41:02 Leonard Feather: of course she does. Well she plays soprano.

00:17:41:04 - 00:17:42:26 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: She is, but primarily.

00:17:42:29 - 00:17:45:15 Leonard Feather: But she plays soprano on all the two tracks.

00:17:45:16 - 00:17:47:10 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: She’s primarily. What else. Alto.

00:17:47:15 - 00:17:47:29 Leonard Feather: There’s other.

00:17:47:29 - 00:17:50:07 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Ones. Yeah right. I know she’s like.

00:17:50:13 - 00:17:52:12 Leonard Feather: Interstitial played mostly soprano.

00:17:52:14 - 00:17:54:23 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Surprised. Well, she needs a lesson

00:17:54:25 - 00:17:58:17 Leonard Feather: Yeah. She.

00:17:58:20 - 00:18:01:02 Leonard Feather: That’s wonderful.

00:18:01:04 - 00:18:18:28 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Well, that is, of all the things you play, that’s the one that’s not even in the same category for. So it’s just not creative music. It’s dance music for me. And on that level, it’s what it is. And, I mean, if I heard that somewhere, I wouldn’t even turn my head, actually. And I would say, oh, there’s somebody that’s trying to play a soprano saxophone.

00:18:18:28 - 00:18:35:08 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s very interesting. yeah. Absolutely. No time. Field is completely stiff. I had no idea what it was. And the band could have been any amount of fusion bands that some young guys just try to make some dance music. I think one star, I mean, maybe just not the same category almost.

00:18:35:11 - 00:18:36:26 Leonard Feather: Yeah, yeah.

00:18:36:29 - 00:18:37:16 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And no idea who.

00:18:37:16 - 00:18:39:23 Leonard Feather: It is I want to make in those terms. I mean, it’s up to, you.

00:18:39:25 - 00:18:40:27 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Know, no start as it.

00:18:40:27 - 00:18:41:24 Leonard Feather: Happens to.

00:18:41:26 - 00:18:43:00 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Have a star.

00:18:43:02 - 00:18:44:26 Leonard Feather: Has that you do have all this.

00:18:44:29 - 00:18:57:28 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Oh this is well that one star was better because at least there was an effort and creativity. So this is definitely less lesser than that. So I’ll give it a half. So I’m sorry to say it, it was nothing that glowed. Zoot Sims definitely was the top of the line.

00:18:58:01 - 00:18:59:04 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:18:59:07 - 00:19:01:06 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Just the old is better. Is that much I mean.

00:19:01:09 - 00:19:03:24 Leonard Feather: Why would you get five stars if I played.

00:19:04:05 - 00:19:19:27 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: well, of course. Coltrane. Wayne. You know certain? Wayne. Certain guy. Steve Lacy. Like, there’s an album called A Straight Haunt of Steve Lacy, which is amazing. I think, there are definitely things that I would consider five stars where the performances, I mean, the instrumental thing is beyond soprano. And before.

00:19:19:27 - 00:19:32:08 Leonard Feather: It was. Right. Yeah.

00:19:32:11 - 00:19:37:06 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And.

00:19:37:08 - 00:19:46:04 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: We. They.

00:19:46:07 - 00:19:52:24 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Have this in.

00:19:56:12 - 00:20:05:27 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: In, in.

00:20:17:07 - 00:20:38:03 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And. And,

00:20:38:05 - 00:20:54:11 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And.

00:20:56:19 - 00:21:04:17 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And anyway, I.

00:21:04:20 - 00:21:17:18 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I I had ever heard.

00:21:25:04 - 00:21:32:16 Leonard Feather: I never heard.

00:21:32:19 - 00:21:36:20 Leonard Feather: Oh.

00:22:10:19 - 00:22:36:20 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I live in,

00:22:36:23 - 00:22:47:17 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I, I never.

00:22:47:20 - 00:22:54:00 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Played.

00:23:05:27 - 00:23:22:08 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: up.

00:23:39:11 - 00:23:45:01 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Did.

00:23:45:03 - 00:23:53:11 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: They.

00:23:53:13 - 00:24:30:15 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: That’s the thought that is done. That’s the fun. What do you. So you don’t talk like C on piano, David Eubanks on bass, Eddie Gladden on drums, Dexter Gordon, ladies and gentlemen.

00:24:30:18 - 00:24:41:26 Leonard Feather: Jack Elliot and Lucy Henderson. The third. Monday, April 9th, 1984.

00:24:41:28 - 00:24:44:01 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You’re right. Yeah.

00:24:45:12 - 00:25:11:19 Leonard Feather: well, I want to talk actually about two main things. One, of course, is the, the anniversary celebration of what’s happened on that occasion. And, you know, of course, about about, Luther’s program, which, deserves really cheers in itself. I’m going to try to combine them. it’s super interesting.

00:25:11:21 - 00:25:12:11 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s important.

00:25:12:16 - 00:25:31:07 Leonard Feather: I don’t want. Well, let me let me ask you a basic question. How did the idea for this workshop come about? And how did you, you with Luther?

00:25:31:09 - 00:25:58:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: The idea came about after a lot of thinking. When we first started. We approached, and I think we talked about this at one time. We approached a number of black players simply because we we wanted them and Jerome was there. in fact, we had several meetings with Ray, Tommy Johnson saying, look, if we can do something, now’s a good time to do it.

00:25:58:16 - 00:26:16:12 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Who are the people you know? Who are the people? Yeah, tell me names. Tell me where they are. I’m sure I don’t know everyone who were the string players. And now don’t do it on any other basis except the recommendation that these are blacks, Chicanos, whatever it is. Who can play?

00:26:16:14 - 00:26:17:27 Leonard Feather: Who can play? Yeah.

00:26:17:29 - 00:26:34:16 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And after I think we wound up with maybe 3 or 4 people. Oscar was there. Jerome Ray, Tommy. Some subs every once in a while. And then they started dropping off.

00:26:34:23 - 00:26:35:07 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:26:35:07 - 00:26:51:18 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And you’d say, well, what’s the story? What’s going on? And finally Ray said to me, he said, listen, man, nobody’s going to tell you this, but if they can make 300 bucks playing a jazz gig somewhere or $200, and the orchestra is $50 that can’t afford this.

00:26:51:20 - 00:26:52:27 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:26:52:29 - 00:27:19:27 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And I said, okay, got it too. And I don’t know how one day I, I was just thinking, what can we do with the union problems? you know, problems just got to pay. Yeah. Where are the people going to come from? And what would happen if we put together a band specifically addressing ourselves to the problem, which is how do you train people?

00:27:19:27 - 00:27:46:03 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: How does an actor get a job? By acting? A singer can’t work in a club unless they’ve worked in a club. Yeah, the famous circle keeps going on. And how do you break the circle? Yeah, because it sure does exist. And the other thing that I felt was, I hope we could get some younger blood in there to start thinking about replacing people in the orchestra, because in every orchestra, especially a freelance orchestra, there’s going to be a certain amount of attrition.

00:27:46:06 - 00:28:05:23 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: We’ve been very fortunate so far. But on the other hand, after five years and six years, who knows what’s going to happen when this one’s going to retire, this one’s going to move away as well as, hey, we got some people in there. It might stimulate black composers too. There’s there are things that we’re missing.

00:28:05:26 - 00:28:07:10 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:28:07:12 - 00:28:29:02 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And if I were in New York, I think I would probably have more access to that than here. This is, I think, an earthquake to get me to go out anywhere. I mean, forget about being busy, but the New York, you’re out. You see, people, there’s more central. Yeah. And I can say to, trumpet. Hey, who’s playing?

00:28:29:02 - 00:28:48:15 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You know who? The players here. I mean, I just I literally ran into a resume player today that I’ve heard about for 21 years since I’ve been here. Jack Marsh, Jack Marsh is supposedly one of the best bassoon players in town. for years, Jack Marsh has heard about me and people will say, do you work for 21 years?

00:28:48:18 - 00:28:59:25 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Well, he lives at the beach and plays golf, and he works in it’s very isolated here, much more than New York. And so Luther came in one day.

00:28:59:28 - 00:29:02:16 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And trying to convince him to play one of my.

00:29:02:16 - 00:29:03:20 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Pieces. Right then.

00:29:03:20 - 00:29:04:04 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I started.

00:29:04:05 - 00:29:14:18 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Right, right. Luther came up to the office and he said, I’m Luther Henderson. And I said, no, you’re not. And he said, oh, you must know. I said, oh, yeah, I know.

00:29:14:18 - 00:29:16:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You must know. My father.

00:29:16:15 - 00:29:36:19 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Sir. And we started talking and about the piece and a little bit about what the orchestra and what we’re trying to do. And then I said to him, listen, never mind writing. That’s what do you want it? You know, with his background, education, having worked with the fellow who died from the Philharmonic.

00:29:36:19 - 00:29:39:02 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Leon Townsend Thompson, who was from.

00:29:39:02 - 00:29:40:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: The the engineer guys and.

00:29:40:16 - 00:29:43:29 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Educational director for the New York Philharmonic. Really young guy.

00:29:44:05 - 00:29:59:04 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Just think of that. all he told me about this and, and he said, take a look at this and showed me his treatise. for his doctorate. And I took it home, and I read it, and.

00:29:59:06 - 00:29:59:27 Leonard Feather: It was that event.

00:30:00:00 - 00:30:33:20 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It was it’s entitled the director of Educational Activities in New York Philharmonic. a new Dimension for the conductor. And basically, it chronicled, Leon Thompson’s ten years as educational director for the New York Philharmonic. during that period of time, he, put together programs, for Leonard Bernstein with Leonard Bernstein and he and Pierre Boulez for the educational concerts that were shown in the Young People’s Concerts on TV, and also the run out concerts to the New York.

00:30:33:20 - 00:30:35:23 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Philharmonic, going into community.

00:30:35:26 - 00:31:02:18 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Going into the community. He was he was instrumental in bringing the New York Philharmonic to Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem, and had Leontyne Price and the New York Philharmonic perform right in Harlem. there are other at Riverside Church in New York. there were other events, that he, made came about with his position at that New York Philharmonic.

00:31:02:18 - 00:31:22:04 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And so I felt that that was, something worthwhile to study and to use, because my primary focus is as being a composer, arranger and conductor was also to to bring the orchestra and orchestra to the community and make it a more worthwhile, venture.

00:31:22:07 - 00:31:23:20 Leonard Feather: Where were you living at this time?

00:31:23:23 - 00:31:58:17 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I was in Austin, Texas, at the University of Texas at Austin, and I spent so about a month up in New York City doing my research, my primary research. I, I grew up here in Los Angeles, and, Dorsey High School, graduate school. And, he knows that. Dorsey. Hello. All right, all right. Okay. And then, after I got out of Dorsey in, in 67, I went to the Eastman School of Music in Rochester, New York, and, received both my bachelor’s and master’s.

00:31:58:17 - 00:32:02:21 Leonard Feather: I think I have of. Yeah. But, how did you happen to go up to Joe?

00:32:02:24 - 00:32:23:22 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Well, I was I was playing some of my music for Bill Henderson, the violinist, and he was mentioned. He said, well, why don’t you take it, Jack? You know, the orchestra does music like this. I mean, you know, they had strings and it had Afro-Cuban rhythms, and this would be something that the orchestra could handle. He couldn’t end.

00:32:23:22 - 00:32:48:19 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: So I called up Jack Elliot, made an appointment and brought my scores, tapes of things that I had done, you know, as a, as a struggling arranger, composer, etc., trying to get some work here. And he basically see, I guess he liked the music. He said, well, you know, we do a little bit, you know, it has it has to be longer.

00:32:48:22 - 00:33:07:14 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: So he so we started talking about my background and what I would like to do as a composer and doctor, and also my activities in the educational field, as I, previously taught at Beverly Hills High School for four years and, in the LA school system, I.

00:33:07:14 - 00:33:09:10 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Remember him because my kids were over.

00:33:09:10 - 00:33:10:05 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: There, here we did.

00:33:10:12 - 00:33:29:02 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: See a cello player, and I said, what was that? I never did get a chance to meet him that night, but I had heard about him and I said, I wonder if that’s Bruce’s son, Harmony. Luther Anderson’s can be right, right, right. And I never got back. And next thing I knew, the kids all love this guy, and he was gone.

00:33:29:04 - 00:33:33:04 Leonard Feather: Well, how did the assembly boy idea develop? Well, that.

00:33:33:07 - 00:33:47:22 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Well, okay. After our first meeting, Jack and I were talking about his. He wanted to get more community involved in. He’s talking about what is the Bellevue, the Bellevue library in Compton, that, you know.

00:33:47:24 - 00:33:49:16 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Oh, yeah. The bill through the bill.

00:33:49:18 - 00:33:51:03 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: The bill for the library started.

00:33:51:03 - 00:34:10:28 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You remember the first Martin Luther King concert? The second one didn’t work. The third one we were able to get on. And this year the shrine gave it to us. So we lost the whole concert. Yeah, but, I was saying to Luther, I said, I’ve been searching for a way to look to to recognize this problem. What can we do, you know, so what is there that we can do?

00:34:10:29 - 00:34:30:17 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: So what I was what I was doing during that initial meeting. We were talking like this. He would say something and in parallel I would say something else. And, essentially I said, well, you know, like, you know, the New York Philharmonic has a seven, $8 million budget. Well, the New American Orchestra doesn’t have that type of budget.

00:34:30:25 - 00:34:57:09 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: But the same things in in this orchestra, the New American Orchestra is more relevant because here they’re performing music that the people can readily understand. Yeah. Okay. So I laid my, doctoral treatise on. It’s because it seemed as though we were just going in parallels. And then I get a call from him and say, hey, this is exactly what I’ve been talking about.

00:34:57:11 - 00:35:23:05 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: So we got together and brainstorm. And for I guess that was always about three of three and a half, four years ago, when I came on basically, you know, in a volunteer effort because personally, I want to get ahead as far as my musical career. And I know from a minority standpoint that there are others that are qualified players.

00:35:23:07 - 00:35:52:08 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And so it’s this is a project dear to my heart. So, we started we basically coined the phrase the Studio Workshop Institute in to try to identify, it came about because of several problems that we address, primarily the number of minority musicians that are actively, employed on a regular basis in the motion picture, television and recording industry.

00:35:52:10 - 00:36:27:20 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And there were there happened to be at that particular time, no, professional organization that was interested in recruiting minority musicians, and there was no clearinghouse to give to provide contractors, conductors, quote unquote, producers, the people that do the hiring, the names of the qualified minority musicians to and as a, as a as we were talking before, Jack arrived, Arthur us Jack and I felt that.

00:36:27:22 - 00:37:02:20 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: We did not want to be in a confrontational role with any of the producers or the or the studios out here, i.e., you know, we can’t make anyone employ you. that was proven by, you know, the various methods of, basically our our thrust is to provide, contractors and producers to to present them with here are the minority musicians that are highly qualified.

00:37:02:23 - 00:37:32:02 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s not that Luther Henderson, a Jack Elliot, say they can play is because if we tell you a woodwind player can play is because Bill green, buddy Collette, they riddles as audition those folks. Yeah. There’s three out of 20 people that are on our educational steering committee who have auditioned Garnet Brown, Miles Anderson, Bob Watt, French horn player for the LA Philharmonic on audition, and, Richard Hurwitz audition.

00:37:32:02 - 00:37:58:25 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: The brass players, you know, so when I, when I talked to a Sandy to crescent over it at universal or any contractor is not Luther Henderson the third group they probably don’t know yet. Okay. Is saying that these people are good. I was saying, well, you know, these highly qualified and prominent professionals, they say that they’re good and they, they want, please give them a chance because they they deserve it.

00:37:58:28 - 00:38:04:14 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: The. We have,

00:38:04:16 - 00:38:12:09 Leonard Feather: Well, how long does it take before you got some specific, I mean, actual action. That’s right.

00:38:12:12 - 00:38:16:14 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Well, we have, it soon is.

00:38:16:14 - 00:38:17:01 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: We hired them.

00:38:17:07 - 00:38:19:10 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: As soon as we hired them.

00:38:19:13 - 00:38:22:29 Leonard Feather: Soon as the the darkness. I mean.

00:38:23:02 - 00:38:46:29 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: The foundation. We started own soon as we hired them. One of the things I felt and I still feel is, if we do what we can do, which is we know a little bit about music, and we draw from a talent pool that can come down and put the music in front of and recreate studio conditions, put click tracks on them.

00:38:47:02 - 00:39:08:14 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Know you got one shot at this. Come on. Why aren’t you? Yeah. Recreate battle conditions for them. For that, we can at least prepare them for that first date that when you walk in the studio. Yeah. And I’m not so sure how we’re going to beat it, you know, in terms of what kind of a ding we can make.

00:39:08:14 - 00:39:29:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: But I know that if we do what we do and concentrate on that, and when we got some money on the grant, I finally was able to get him enough money to get him to work. Part time. And then when I said, let’s go with let’s get the orchestra going, let’s just do it, man. Because, if we will do it, if we talk about it, I’ve been there before.

00:39:29:13 - 00:39:55:17 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You know what I’m talking about. This can be talked from. Let’s just do what we do. Let’s get a rehearsal hall. Let’s get some players and let’s concentrate on saying. And so he did the organizational stuff, and we put the band together. And we found out that this was pretty good player over here. And that’s not a bad player over here then I don’t know how, but either you came to me or somebody came to me and said, listen, if you’re using subs in the orchestra, why don’t we use the kids?

00:39:55:20 - 00:39:57:21 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: That’s great.

00:39:57:23 - 00:40:02:20 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Yeah. Joe Lo still in the Joe. Joe Lopez, the manager in the American orchestra, came in the office one day.

00:40:02:20 - 00:40:03:20 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: He said few years ago.

00:40:03:23 - 00:40:41:11 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Hey, look, I need subs, you know, and, one of our one of our people in the foundation kept repeating him, so. Well, why don’t you just send some of the people in the studio Workshop Institute all of a sudden? Oh, you got a loose. Yeah, we got a list. All right. And next thing we know, bam! We got 3 or 4 people sitting at sitting at Paramount Studios at a rehearsal, Jack Elliott conducting, Jerry Goldsmith conducting, and all of a sudden, you know, so and all of a sudden I come to the rehearsal until one of the one of a couple of our studio players, I tell them, look, Jerry Goldsmith doesn’t know

00:40:41:11 - 00:41:03:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: that here, so all he knows is a Jack Elliott has an American orchestra, and you’re in it, so you must be good. So go. Oh, we can get you in the ballpark. So go over to Jerry Goldsmith and tell him. Hey, look, I enjoy playing your music, Mr. Goldsmith. And, you know, and I play the bassoon, or I play the cello, and that’s how it happens.

00:41:03:16 - 00:41:05:24 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: So just don’t sit up there. What?

00:41:05:29 - 00:41:17:21 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You know, it’s also one way where, we’re talking now about putting together the jazz repertory groups because, you know, there’s a lot of music out there that you play.

00:41:17:23 - 00:41:18:09 Leonard Feather: You know.

00:41:18:12 - 00:41:39:00 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s American history. And one of the programs that hopefully we will pull out of this group, how can we get them some money? Because it’s important they need the money. How can we stop them, you know, from taking something that, or not attending a rehearsal by replacing the bucks that they need to live with? Summer.

00:41:39:01 - 00:41:40:00 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:41:40:03 - 00:42:01:10 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And if we had a jazz repertory group, we could play Ellington and we can play sort of Finnegan, and we could start to recognize and maybe in our own little way, say, hey, you know, it’s part of American history. You may not know this, but the Billy made arrangements and and Nelson and there’s they’ve had an impact. And another idea would be to take this repertory group into the schools and do an hour at lunchtime.

00:42:01:13 - 00:42:22:08 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: There’s no music in the schools anymore. The budget under prop 13. Boom. That’s the first thing. It went with the arts and music. Well, maybe we can get a few bucks from somebody here. The cost is a thousand $1,500 to go into the schools and hit, 2000 kids at one shot, play them some of our music, play them their music.

00:42:22:11 - 00:42:40:00 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You never mind the woodwind quintets of Mozart. ET cetera. That’s great. But I think the Philharmonic takes care of that. And if they don’t, there’s another group that takes care of that. Nobody’s taken care of. Nobody’s playing the blues, and no one’s standing up and saying, you should be proud of this music. Look who these people are. I don’t have to tell you.

00:42:40:00 - 00:42:42:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You spent your whole life writing about.

00:42:43:00 - 00:42:47:12 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: one of the one of the. It’s so important. It’s important. And one of the things on.

00:42:47:12 - 00:42:58:28 Leonard Feather: My tape is, is. Okay, if you let her do 6 or 7, slide.

00:42:59:08 - 00:43:01:21 Leonard Feather: I got to talk about the consequences.

00:43:01:21 - 00:43:03:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Yeah. Oh, yes.

00:43:04:12 - 00:43:05:19 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Five years.

00:43:05:19 - 00:43:06:24 Leonard Feather: Yeah, that’s really.

00:43:06:27 - 00:43:09:09 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Cool, Ray.

00:43:09:12 - 00:43:14:17 Leonard Feather: Lewis, how did you arrive at this particular program?

00:43:14:19 - 00:43:33:08 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Well, I’ve been wanting to do something of Billy’s for a long time, and I talked to Billy me about adding sort of Dixie. I think it’s a classic album. And, always it felt that way as one of his albums you listen to almost 30 years later, and it sounds like it was recorded yesterday, and we talked a little bit about it.

00:43:33:08 - 00:43:50:02 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: He told me that he had done something for a John Williams at the pops, and he did Rampart Street, and I listened to it and I thought some more, and I said, you know what? That’s good. The way it was written, why don’t we just take a band out of our band and get the front line the way he did?

00:43:50:04 - 00:44:08:02 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Heidi Bow and Dick Cathcart and, forget who else, play. Let’s see. oh. Justin Gordon, I can’t remember the trombone player’s name. Put that front line up front and pick out three of Billy’s things and play them the way they were written. And so I’m going to try. We’ve never done that before.

00:44:08:03 - 00:44:08:18 Leonard Feather: The strains.

00:44:08:18 - 00:44:14:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I just know we’re going to play it the way it was written and turn around and say, hey, I want you to know that.

00:44:14:16 - 00:44:14:29 Leonard Feather: This is.

00:44:14:29 - 00:44:33:29 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Important music. You may not know it just because it feels good, it doesn’t mean that it’s not important. It’s, sort of say, well, to try, you know, we’ve never done anything like that before. And I hope that if that works out, we can increase, maybe broaden. I talked to Harvey Easton in New York as Harvey’s got the whole sort of Finnigan Library.

00:44:34:02 - 00:44:43:10 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You know, there’s a couple of things that are worthwhile playing and go back and, John Charles is going to redo some of the Lunsford stuff for his band.

00:44:43:12 - 00:44:43:29 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Though.

00:44:44:01 - 00:44:48:15 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And you know, that to treat it seriously, that’s all.

00:44:48:17 - 00:44:49:24 Leonard Feather: What’s Patrick Williams doing.

00:44:49:29 - 00:44:53:19 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: That’s doing a new piece for, Mulligan and Day.

00:44:53:19 - 00:44:57:27 Leonard Feather: Oh, was it called, got a new number?

00:44:57:27 - 00:45:02:17 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: We called that something about. I’ll get somebody to get.

00:45:02:17 - 00:45:03:13 Leonard Feather: You the title.

00:45:03:24 - 00:45:06:14 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: but he’s written specifically for Mulligan and Dates.

00:45:06:20 - 00:45:08:08 Leonard Feather: what’s the version?

00:45:08:11 - 00:45:15:28 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: He’s going to play it to play? Yeah, just playing piano. Dave and Jerry have a terrific chemistry together.

00:45:16:01 - 00:45:16:29 Leonard Feather: Apparently. Yeah, but,

00:45:17:04 - 00:45:23:23 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: They really get along very well, and they’re they’re kindred spirits and. Yeah, they love to work together.

00:45:23:25 - 00:45:28:07 Leonard Feather: And, let’s me say that Quincy is probably going to bring in some of his old seven.

00:45:28:07 - 00:45:50:09 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Shots of Quincy as got. We got, Quincy found, remember the album? I didn’t even know about it. Quincy told me that, he had done an album with Sarah. We’re going to play Hank’s piece with Ray Petey. And, I think Brown is going to work with us, too. The one that Hank wrote for us. He’s for bassoon, and.

00:45:50:11 - 00:45:52:18 Leonard Feather: He and Sarah did a lot of things together for Mercury.

00:45:52:19 - 00:46:14:06 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Right. And and since we’re playing this thing of Hank’s and it’s Hank’s 60th birthday this month, but, you know, we’re just going to say happy birthday. In the meantime, Quincy told me that he had done this album of Hank’s tunes with Sarah once, and I forgot about it. I said, I remember you mean Copenhagen. He said, yeah.

00:46:14:06 - 00:46:31:02 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You said, for Christ’s sake. It was the first chart Bob James ever wrote, foreign and wrote on it. Byers wrote on it, and he said, I’ll see if I still got him. So he called me back and he said, listen, I got the foreign charts, but we need this, this and this. And, this string should be fixed.

00:46:31:02 - 00:46:46:10 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I said, fine, let’s call Dick Hazzard. So Dick is going to redo the foreign and stuff. and he’s also got Dick is going to write an arrangement. let’s see, we’re doing trying to think of the tunes. a morning instead of glass.

00:46:46:10 - 00:46:50:27 Leonard Feather: Is enough to. But there’s no doubt.

00:46:50:27 - 00:47:10:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Quincy Quincy will conduct him. Quincy is going to conduct. So, Dick is going to write. We’re going to do Mr. Lucky. We’re going to do, I think he’s going to do two for the road, and end with Mr. Lucky, with maybe Sarah and Jerry and Dave, you know, knockout, knockout.

00:47:10:14 - 00:47:10:23 Leonard Feather: Sounds.

00:47:10:23 - 00:47:15:15 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Like the end of the Paramount Theater days. Yeah, close it out once that way.

00:47:15:18 - 00:47:16:06 Leonard Feather: That sounds like.

00:47:16:12 - 00:47:21:21 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It should be a nice evening. And, of course, you know Sarah.

00:47:21:24 - 00:47:28:11 Leonard Feather: Room there. How many of the S.w.o.r.d. you will be on this one? Two, maybe.

00:47:28:15 - 00:47:50:15 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Oh, I would think probably three. Will at least 3 or 4. we’re going to try something else we’re going to approach the union with. But this time we’re going to make an effort. We’d like to try to set up, a situation where we can take especially violins and strings, let us augment our string section and let us pay them an honorarium.

00:47:50:15 - 00:48:06:24 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I mean, we can’t afford to pay them, but if I could get 20 more strings, I’d pay them 50 bucks apiece. And I think that from an educational standpoint. And also there’s the other thing of associating with the people who are really in the business and making money.

00:48:06:26 - 00:48:07:05 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:48:07:06 - 00:48:26:18 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And who are aware of who was there, that if the union will, accept this, then we’ll try it on, on this concert. Well, you never know because the first thing chances are they’re going to say no, you have to pay them and all the rest of it. And my feeling is I don’t want to exploit them. But at the same time, there’s no better training.

00:48:26:20 - 00:48:50:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I found that I’ve never learned anything until I was over my head in terms of, you know, when I went into a place and I heard, a Billy Strayhorn arrangement that drove me crazy because that, the next time I went in, I would stretch out, I would try to get there, and I never could and, never took you a long time to realize that you don’t have to.

00:48:50:13 - 00:49:07:01 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You can sort of do what you do. But when you go in with people who play better than you, who sing better than you, who are that you look up to, you’re going to you’re going to come up a notch. You’re going to come up a notch. You’re going to learn going to learn something. So, I don’t we’ll see.

00:49:07:01 - 00:49:11:00 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You know, unions have their own problems.

00:49:11:04 - 00:49:24:28 Leonard Feather: You know, first, the 25 years you still only had one record out and I know what the financial problems are with the situation. Somebody can come up with a you.

00:49:25:00 - 00:49:35:11 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s crazy. It’s absolutely crazy. And it’s so frustrating. We go down there, we’ll rehearse a program like this or a film concert. I mean, look at the Swingle program. My goodness.

00:49:35:11 - 00:49:35:24 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:49:35:24 - 00:49:55:02 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: We did. I mean, you know, I’m not telling you that every piece we played was the world’s great. And you commission the number of works that we played, maybe 4 or 5 pieces will last, but they never existed before. That’s the last thing is for somebody else. I read a great quote of Mahler saying, you don’t have to be around to be immortal.

00:49:55:05 - 00:49:58:08 Leonard Feather: Yeah, yeah. Which company specifically.

00:49:58:08 - 00:50:23:01 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: With PolyGram is interested now that we presented them with a budget and they’re talking about the possibility, and it’s a very good one of doing, something for a compact disc, which would be ideal. I mean, this orchestra, when it’s through rehearsing, it’s a crime that it’s not recorded. I mean, it’s a I’m not saying it’s the world’s greatest music, but when you consider that.

00:50:23:04 - 00:50:26:17 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: All that money goes to rehearse it, and then there’s no record that’s unique.

00:50:26:17 - 00:50:27:02 Leonard Feather: That’s the thing.

00:50:27:02 - 00:50:39:03 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And no one else is doing it, you know? And it’s a damn good forum for the composers. And maybe one of these days, it’ll take it’ll have some more import. It’s just.

00:50:39:06 - 00:50:43:08 Leonard Feather: And that is something that is absolutely, logical. And not only.

00:50:43:08 - 00:50:49:03 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: That, it’s crazy with the technology and the ability to do these things.

00:50:49:05 - 00:50:56:00 Leonard Feather: It says that we’re stuck in attitude and we are trying industry. You know, if you can sell 23 million records like Michael Jackson. No.

00:50:56:03 - 00:51:26:19 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: That’s right, that’s right. This is an album that might cost 50 or $60,000 to play. Well, they spend more than that setting up synthesizers for a sweetening date. I mean, it cartridges 3500 and the rentals are 3000. And to me, I know it’s the marketing that’s the American way in, but I think there’s a couple hundred thousand people around the world that would be interested in a record like this over a 2 or 3 year period.

00:51:26:22 - 00:51:28:06 Leonard Feather: Or even over 10 or 20 of.

00:51:28:07 - 00:51:33:07 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Yeah, but there’s no shelf life of, you know, it’s like we’re just talking about that album with Sarah and Quincy.

00:51:33:09 - 00:51:43:06 Leonard Feather: I love it, you know, stuff. And I think that’s history records are that are being reissued today that were made 50 years ago. Right. You know, they’ve been constantly used by some of the, you know, the Ellington.

00:51:43:13 - 00:51:45:02 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I was listening to them yesterday.

00:51:45:06 - 00:51:50:01 Leonard Feather: They’d probably lost a lot of money. Rosalie Lewis and the long run, they’ve made a big profit.

00:51:50:02 - 00:52:10:07 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: That Columbia series that’s got the Ellington band I forget volume one two and three. I forget who did it. But there’s a couple of things on there that are of such importance in the history of music, where you see this band, this young band from Washington or just doing, yeah, playing these things. And all of a sudden there’s Scott Joplin and here’s the ragtime.

00:52:10:07 - 00:52:29:17 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: And you said, it’s like, sound like a goddamn vaudeville band and swung like, yeah, and nobody’s say, hey, hey, kids, I want to play you something, you know, play that stuff with them and then go to the schools and say, This is Duke Ellington and this is Duke Ellington train. But the life of a composer. have.

00:52:29:17 - 00:52:37:24 Leonard Feather: You thought about. I’m sure you must have, at some appropriate time doing a whole evening of Strayhorn and Ellington.

00:52:37:26 - 00:52:46:00 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: You assure him? I’ll tell you something. We have to change because we’re batting our heads against the wall. But he has.

00:52:46:14 - 00:52:51:26 Leonard Feather: we assume he has. Mercer has some charts that were done for those symphony authors that.

00:52:51:28 - 00:52:57:16 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I’ve been talking to. Well, we’ve been shurmur’s. We’ve been talking to him and Luther’s that orchestra.

00:52:57:17 - 00:53:05:29 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Right. So my father orchestrated the three black. Yeah. Okay. And did. Well, the rest of the world is coming, right?

00:53:06:05 - 00:53:09:04 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Mercer. And what’s your name? Ruth. The sister. Is it?

00:53:09:17 - 00:53:10:08 Leonard Feather: yeah.

00:53:10:10 - 00:53:25:25 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: The who control the music are negotiating and have been for almost a year. They want Shurmur’s to take it and they’re trying. They’re still decorating overexpress. And if they get and Perez is there and if they get it, then it would be ideal, for us to have.

00:53:25:28 - 00:53:29:24 Leonard Feather: That was not what he did. The Harlem suite. Yeah, it’s doing all right. We got the hamburger.

00:53:29:24 - 00:53:34:23 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: The Paris. Yes. There’s a and there’s a piece in Copenhagen. I think that he did, too. What? The kings, the,

00:53:35:00 - 00:53:35:20 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Three black.

00:53:35:23 - 00:53:38:11 Leonard Feather: That was later that was absent. And,

00:53:38:14 - 00:53:39:13 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Was it done afterwards?

00:53:39:13 - 00:53:58:20 Leonard Feather: Oh, yes. That was that was with mercy. And I’m talking about the album that Frank and just with the reprise was just starting, and Duke was on a contract to them. He made a whole album of, it was four pieces. So it’s Harlem, La Scala, nonviolent integration. And it’s a nice feature.

00:53:58:20 - 00:53:59:11 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: That’s interesting.

00:53:59:17 - 00:54:01:08 Leonard Feather: All with strings from different.

00:54:01:10 - 00:54:02:16 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: It’s reprise,

00:54:02:19 - 00:54:09:13 Leonard Feather: Yeah. And as a show, the, and, that was remarkable stuff. And it’s never been done again.

00:54:09:15 - 00:54:10:07 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: So that would be great.

00:54:10:08 - 00:54:11:20 Leonard Feather: I assume somebody.

00:54:11:23 - 00:54:29:08 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: We have to do some stuff because the concerts, we’re getting priced out of business. Forget about the support. I mean, it’s not it’s not even a question of that until the concert costs are. And the hall’s. And the other thing is developing audiences. I don’t know what in a world of Michael Jackson, I don’t know how to do it.

00:54:29:11 - 00:54:51:29 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: I mean, I don’t know what the answer is. I really don’t think. I think the only answer is to stay in business and keep doing it. And, I think next year, for instance, we’ll look at maybe two concerts with the big orchestra, and one addressing things like this where we use maybe just the strings and, rhythm section, change the programing so that we can afford to live with these things.

00:54:51:29 - 00:55:16:07 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: What they’re costing salaries in the first two concerts averaged, almost $40,000 for a you. And, where are you going to get the money for $40,000 there? $7,000 in, advertising. By the time you turn around and you look at the rents and the lights in the in the hall, you put $75,000 to go out and play a concert like that.

00:55:16:07 - 00:55:18:07 Leonard Feather: And we’re still looking for fun.

00:55:18:08 - 00:55:22:10 Jack Elliott, Luther Henderson or Dave Liebman: Oh, yeah? Yeah. We’ve never gotten a nickel for the studio workshop.

00:55:22:10 - 00:55:29:00 Leonard Feather: Not even then. Well, how much are you getting from the.