The Adderley Brothers Blindfold Test – Arthur Godfrey’s Commentary – Al Hirt Blindfold Test [transcript]

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:10:18 Unknown Speaker: I.

00:00:10:20 - 00:00:21:27 Unknown Speaker: Adderly brothers. Blindfold test record number one.

00:00:21:29 - 00:00:28:10 Unknown Speaker: Thank you. Then the number 900 and.

00:00:28:12 - 00:00:31:27 Unknown Speaker: I like that.

00:00:31:29 - 00:00:34:13 Unknown Speaker: I’m glad that.

00:00:34:15 - 00:00:36:06 Unknown Speaker: That’s right. Clock care is happening.

00:00:36:07 - 00:00:39:02 Unknown Speaker: Best thing on the record clock that I like.

00:00:39:02 - 00:01:10:21 Unknown Speaker: The reason. We’re here. I don’t know what they intend, though. You know, when I listen to that kind of thing. I don’t know whether they intend to, I want to say they. I mean, I don’t know whether this is, an arranges record or whether it’s a van. I know it’s not a band because clock is and studios in New York, so it’s, you know, some kind of, writers kind of record.

00:01:10:23 - 00:01:31:07 Unknown Speaker: Or something of that nature. And, I don’t know whether they are trying to reach a jazz market or pop market or what they’re trying to do, because it’s got enough elements of all of that to to be any kind of thing, you know? Yeah, nothing artistically shattering, but, I thought it was very well done and very well played.

00:01:31:10 - 00:01:39:17 Unknown Speaker: Slash out of there. Yeah. No, but I didn’t have an idea who that was. I thought for a minute it might have been cool, but I don’t know who it was.

00:01:39:19 - 00:02:02:09 Unknown Speaker: And they got out of to you. Nice to hear the alto player playing with feeling. And, and these days and times moving out of land. But most of the imagery that you play with no more feeling say, a few years ago. Yeah, the alto was a startling block. That was very good. Arrangement got to be kind of monotonous as it wore on and on and on.

00:02:02:09 - 00:02:11:25 Unknown Speaker: But this thing to me. But I think all in all, it was a good the record if you’re going to rate it on a, on a basis.

00:02:11:28 - 00:02:14:27 Unknown Speaker: Well you know two is first rate is good for its very good and five is.

00:02:14:29 - 00:02:31:12 Unknown Speaker: Good and a half okay. So you bring them back.

00:02:31:14 - 00:02:33:04 Unknown Speaker: Kind of let you have.

00:02:33:06 - 00:02:34:27 Unknown Speaker: Yeah.

00:02:34:29 - 00:02:38:15 Unknown Speaker: Well except I will make my statement about the rhythm section.

00:02:38:17 - 00:02:48:19 Unknown Speaker: Well I’ll tell you I know, of course, who most of the cats, the only cat that I don’t think I can identify by now is the drummer.

00:02:48:21 - 00:02:49:19 Unknown Speaker: Yeah.

00:02:49:22 - 00:03:18:20 Unknown Speaker: And it’s probably just as well, because, it sounds like Benny Conner with the with the Giants. Funny thing about this, you know, I’ve always said that a truly great player sort of hardly confines himself to a school. You know, I can hear Dizzy Gillespie playing with. I heard him record with do I can I can hear, Dizzy Gillespie playing with the Basie.

00:03:18:20 - 00:03:39:07 Unknown Speaker: I was working with the swing group or anything. I think the dizzy gonna fit right in is just as well. Yeah. And I sort of feel the same thing. I don’t mean that everybody expands everything. Well, there’s a definite overlapping of of influences and this this kind of personal because, like, Andre Previn could be a swing player or a modern player.

00:03:40:00 - 00:04:01:14 Unknown Speaker: and, and Leroy Vinegar being the type bass player he is, he can fit with the most hip modern jazz group or in this case, a group that feels larger, like a swing group. Yeah. And Frank Rogers leaner plays well in this group. He’s out very well. So does, Ben, in fact, not identified Ben in the ensemble, which was beautiful.

00:04:01:14 - 00:04:23:21 Unknown Speaker: I, you know, very interesting, though I think that when you listen to this kind of like hip is probably won’t agree with me when I say hip is, I don’t mean that derogatory. It’s, It’s a feeling, school of feeling. I mean, the hippies will probably say, well, you know, I said, what is that? You know, but I think that one should listen to everything in its own context, according to itself.

00:04:23:23 - 00:04:43:25 Unknown Speaker: And I think this is a good record, especially for these guys, you know, because, for them to get together with all these different ideas and get a unity of feeling, with the possible exception of the rhythm section, I don’t know, and the section itself, it got a little funny. That’s right. But the general overall feeling was great to me.

00:04:45:02 - 00:04:47:03 Unknown Speaker: and I love Benny.

00:04:47:05 - 00:05:07:11 Unknown Speaker: I think the rhythm, the rhythm section sounds like the, Well, you know, Andre, it’s great. And play was great. I don’t know who drum it, but he and that company’s probably great, too. And I think that with out the three of them playing together, maybe it would have a better feel. You know, everybody doesn’t always play well together.

00:05:07:11 - 00:05:11:13 Unknown Speaker: You could take the three greatest cats in the world and they may not necessarily fit with each other.

00:05:11:14 - 00:05:14:06 Unknown Speaker: Don’t forget it’s full of money. Cancel that to.

00:05:14:08 - 00:05:14:20 Unknown Speaker: Excuse.

00:05:14:20 - 00:05:15:06 Unknown Speaker: Me. That’s right.

00:05:15:09 - 00:05:24:06 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. Pardon me. Yeah. Well look, what I mean is that I think that the rhythm section was a little stiff at times. And.

00:05:24:09 - 00:05:32:17 Unknown Speaker: But for each cat’s statement and the context of that tune, the traditional changes and so forth, I thought it was a good four star effort.

00:05:32:20 - 00:05:44:11 Unknown Speaker: I’m still disagree with you about the guitar, but then you still have it. Who do you think it was? I thought it was very balanced. Maybe I haven’t heard that much.

00:05:44:14 - 00:05:53:00 Unknown Speaker: Actually, they got the Texas sound anyhow. I guess it could be any of those cats, but I thought the sound itself sounded a little more like Bonnie to me. Okay.

00:05:53:02 - 00:05:54:08 Unknown Speaker: What would you write in that?

00:05:54:21 - 00:05:55:26 Unknown Speaker: four and a half.

00:05:55:28 - 00:06:05:22 Unknown Speaker: Four and a half. And you get a full. Yeah.

00:06:05:25 - 00:06:12:19 Unknown Speaker: Lot of travel. Well, you go and find the me.

00:06:12:21 - 00:06:13:17 Unknown Speaker: Now you start. This time.

00:06:13:17 - 00:06:19:00 Unknown Speaker: I. I’m scared of that. Would you start of the last one?

00:06:19:03 - 00:06:24:10 Unknown Speaker: I’m really scared of it.

00:06:24:13 - 00:06:30:08 Unknown Speaker: You know, if you listen, if you listen to this kind of thing.

00:06:30:11 - 00:07:02:10 Unknown Speaker: You listen to one track like this. I couldn’t get a first of all, the trumpet players. Very good. Sound like a good trumpet player. Yeah. being unrestricted, the way that this type thing is, I don’t know, exactly. what they meant to do. But whatever they meant to do, I think it was well done. From what I can understand about it, I don’t understand everything about this just type thing.

00:07:02:17 - 00:07:21:20 Unknown Speaker: They all sound like a musician. I’m afraid to say who it is, because it can be any number of at least three different groups that I can think of. Being the kind of tune it is, a slow tune like this. If it had been on, Facetune, I probably could make a more accurate guess as to who.

00:07:21:24 - 00:07:22:15 Unknown Speaker: I heard you mentioned.

00:07:22:19 - 00:07:34:27 Unknown Speaker: Well, it was, I mentioned Dan Ellis while it was going on, because this confused me from the beginning. As much as I didn’t want to make a guess. And as much as I haven’t heard Dan Ellis. And so I don’t know how he.

00:07:34:27 - 00:07:37:06 Unknown Speaker: Sounds, you know, I mean, you just hear what kind of things.

00:07:37:06 - 00:08:04:18 Unknown Speaker: He does. I just read about what kind of things he does that that don’t know whether that was Don Ellis. I’m not. But if it is Dan Ellis and he’s a good trumpet player and and the best that I can say about it is that under the circumstances, I would rated highly. However, I think that if I had to listen to the full album, I would probably rate it lower because I, I think that it would wear over a bit of time.

00:08:04:18 - 00:08:19:13 Unknown Speaker: I don’t know about playing without chords and this kind of thing. yeah, but these particular people sound to me that if they were playing with people who played with chords, then they would probably sound good.

00:08:19:16 - 00:08:20:09 Unknown Speaker: Yeah.

00:08:20:12 - 00:08:40:28 Unknown Speaker: So the vibes player sounded, like a good vibes player. The piano player. I didn’t get what he was doing, but then that’s another thing altogether. And I don’t think he intended for me to get what he was doing because he didn’t play any chords. So that is out rated highly. I give it three and a half.

00:08:41:00 - 00:08:43:26 Unknown Speaker: Do you think it considers playing without going?

00:08:43:28 - 00:08:48:22 Unknown Speaker: I don’t know what it meant, really. I don’t know what the composer intended is.

00:08:48:22 - 00:08:51:15 Unknown Speaker: I have no point of reference, I guess,

00:08:51:18 - 00:08:56:03 Unknown Speaker: I’m playing with that. Tonally, it’s not the same thing as playing without chords.

00:08:56:05 - 00:09:05:14 Unknown Speaker: Yeah, you’re right, but I don’t know what he intended. You understand what I mean? Yeah. According to the.

00:09:05:17 - 00:09:36:02 Unknown Speaker: The the widespread current thinking in jazz. it doesn’t you don’t have to know what what it means. You know, you just either listen to it and enjoy it or not. So I’ll just put it, frankly, you know, once I read a review of one of records by a guy named Leroy Jones or something like that who said that, that to him listening to that particular record he was reviewing, the whole thing was a bore.

00:09:36:05 - 00:09:59:28 Unknown Speaker: He thought that, that, that was not enough new being said, you know, and, and that sort of felt draft when he read the thing, he says, I thought what one of these was in meaning. And I never knew being said. But he felt that I was too much like, the same routine, you know, like Bobby Timmons was nothing and we were nothing.

00:09:59:28 - 00:10:21:07 Unknown Speaker: And the whole thing was really just a bunch of nothing, and and, that it would if he heard one tune. He’s had enough of Adelaide’s for the evening, and and, I felt that he was entitled to say. And if that’s the way he felt, you see, and, by the same token, I’ll say this, that all I have to hear of this kind of music is a little bit.

00:10:21:10 - 00:10:39:25 Unknown Speaker: And, then, because I have no point of reference and I’m not interested in the same kind of thing myself, that it would, wouldn’t interest me very long. In fact, while listening to this, I was wondering when it was going to end. More or less. Not because it was bad, but, good because, I don’t know whether it was good or bad.

00:10:39:25 - 00:10:58:00 Unknown Speaker: I feel that all the guys are obviously decent musicians. You know, the bass player sounds good. The, drummer was doing all sorts of things, but I don’t know what it meant. And unfortunately, I’m one of those old timers who feel that I have to get an understanding of what it means in order to really thoroughly enjoy a thing.

00:10:58:03 - 00:11:05:15 Unknown Speaker: And I don’t think that I’m ready to rate this because, well, that same reason.

00:11:05:17 - 00:11:13:08 Unknown Speaker: Yeah, I live it a.

00:11:13:11 - 00:11:14:07 Unknown Speaker: By by.

00:11:14:09 - 00:11:16:05 Unknown Speaker: The. Yeah, we got them.

00:11:16:07 - 00:11:38:06 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. And we got them in no trouble for you that. Yeah. Not everybody you know goes I don’t know all the way. But I know for sure that it’s certainly flavored brown and odd Fama. And, for the time I’m figuring, chronologically, you know, it had to be 1953.

00:11:38:11 - 00:11:39:25 Unknown Speaker: 53, 54.

00:11:39:27 - 00:11:41:19 Unknown Speaker: Well, 54 you over there.

00:11:41:24 - 00:11:48:00 Unknown Speaker: Well, now you have a they had been married for 30 years. They had they had been over that, you know, like the last.

00:11:48:05 - 00:12:15:27 Unknown Speaker: Oh yeah. Well no later than 54, first of 54. And, for the time especially, I thought that, Brown and Fama sounded very well, I always like back Hallberg lyricism. I thought that it was fair. Last gleam. Yeah. I didn’t like the alto player because he reminded me of, I didn’t like him simply because he didn’t swing enough, you know?

00:12:15:27 - 00:12:37:29 Unknown Speaker: You know what he sounded like the way he sound like, Paul Desmond without Paul Desmond. Pretty sound. you know, and, the rhythm section just never really got off the ground to me, but, it was very interesting to hear how those cats sounded then, because Brown is startling with that same facility, I guess, that he’s had for years.

00:12:37:29 - 00:12:46:26 Unknown Speaker: It’s beautiful. And and farmer still has that strong, warm. He had that warm feeling then that he has today, which was beautiful.

00:12:47:04 - 00:13:05:13 Unknown Speaker: on that record, to me, it sounded like, you know, the old record would say with bread, you know, how prayer sounds like a breath of fresh air when he comes in? Yeah. You know, I didn’t that he sounds so much in front of the rest of what’s going on right at the time. You know, it’s the way it sounds to me with brown in, black and back.

00:13:05:13 - 00:13:25:05 Unknown Speaker: Hold back plays. Well, I don’t I can’t stand that. That left hand will play and I played that. Really. That’s one of my pet hates that piano player that played it. Play that, play with the left hand like that strict kind of way like that. But what he was doing with his right hand, with the rest. but I didn’t linger.

00:13:25:23 - 00:13:28:27 Unknown Speaker: period. And, for the time.

00:13:29:00 - 00:13:32:24 Unknown Speaker: That alto player must have been on, on a dominant voice or something. No.

00:13:32:26 - 00:13:54:01 Unknown Speaker: Then he got a lot better later on because I heard on the band that you. Yeah. Was good, but, I sit and read them. You know, if I read them on the basis of what I think is good and what I think is bad, and I think that the good is as good as the band and and I don’t know what I don’t know what to say about it.

00:13:54:03 - 00:14:16:00 Unknown Speaker: I give it about three and a half star food for brownie and, and the time that it was made. Yeah. And and 12 what being all played on a right hand. And I’ve given an awful lot of stars if it one for the rest of it thing going on all the time. Find a rhythm section and I’m funny and funny stuff from other people.

00:14:16:02 - 00:14:31:26 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. At least like canon said on a previous record, with this record, you’ve got a point of reference with the other record. But Ellis, you you don’t have a point of reference. You don’t really know how to rate it because you don’t have anything to base it on. But I got something to base this on and it ain’t that good.

00:14:31:26 - 00:14:32:29 Unknown Speaker: It’s just a brown and odd.

00:14:32:29 - 00:14:59:05 Unknown Speaker: And well, well, in that case, I’ll have to disagree with you even more because, if it was 1953 or early 54, it was during the height of the West Coast jazz thing, when everything that was important in jazz and thinking about foreign cats and all like that, their their only point of reference was American records and American musicians and the big stars.

00:14:59:07 - 00:15:14:28 Unknown Speaker: Well, the cats out here, you know, so if those cats were influenced by by Gerry Mulligan and, by, Paul Desmond, so. Well, I can understand why and I even sympathize with them more and would give them for some of us.

00:15:15:05 - 00:15:20:26 Unknown Speaker: Okay, you give them both, star, but I ain’t gonna give them no more than a good way to go.

00:15:20:28 - 00:15:23:17 Unknown Speaker: But, you don’t think it’s good you’re,

00:15:23:19 - 00:15:27:14 Unknown Speaker: That’s the good. Listen, that ain’t even good. Alabama. That’s Western Europe.

00:15:27:16 - 00:15:34:19 Unknown Speaker: Excuse me. Oh.

00:15:34:22 - 00:15:59:25 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. Well, I liked everything but the rubato parts. I didn’t like the the robots overlords too much, you know? but, it’s worth wading through all that just to get to the few bars that were very nice. And I just. Plus, Duke’s cop is always interesting.

00:16:00:05 - 00:16:04:00 Unknown Speaker: what was that? An answer? Like a baritone horn.

00:16:04:02 - 00:16:09:03 Unknown Speaker: You did have a much better left trombone buzzing, I know that,

00:16:09:06 - 00:16:31:27 Unknown Speaker: Well, didn’t the timbre. The sound wasn’t like the, I’m trying to pound it off a lot, like a battle. I don’t know what it could have been, but. Well, that just goes to show you that Duke has a way of taking something simple and very simple and making something out of it. Know? Yeah.

00:16:31:29 - 00:16:36:20 Unknown Speaker: Get out a whole lot of stuff.

00:16:36:22 - 00:16:51:24 Unknown Speaker: Oh, it. I think it would be unfair to give it two minutes left. You wouldn’t have any point of reference, would do, because he’s certainly done a lot of better things than that, you know. Well, yeah. But, for right now that’s about to give him full stop.

00:16:51:26 - 00:16:54:24 Unknown Speaker: I’m going back to four and a half. All right.

00:16:55:00 - 00:16:55:27 Unknown Speaker: You can have the progressive.

00:16:56:02 - 00:16:59:02 Unknown Speaker: I liked it. Well, you were right.

00:16:59:05 - 00:17:05:22 Unknown Speaker: Oh, yeah, probably is I Jackson. Yeah.

00:17:05:24 - 00:17:06:29 Unknown Speaker: You know, I’ll get back on that.

00:17:06:29 - 00:17:10:15 Unknown Speaker: And said, listen, listen, I know what.

00:17:10:17 - 00:17:11:27 Unknown Speaker: We’re talking about for years.

00:17:11:27 - 00:17:15:27 Unknown Speaker: That’s what they should do. But listen right.

00:17:15:29 - 00:17:40:11 Unknown Speaker: In fact, in fact, it ain’t on it. That needs to listen to him. I take that back and I know, I know some people as fostering that thing is going to of them just listen Jack McLean and and and the cats more and they’ll find out that that what on it’s talking about. It’s not really that there’s any doubt that you damn it just being something to them makes it more ridiculous because Jackie McLean been way ahead of the game long.

00:17:40:11 - 00:17:46:04 Unknown Speaker: Damn. Yeah. That’s true. For example. And then really.

00:17:46:06 - 00:17:49:00 Unknown Speaker: A little bit about that, a beat up.

00:17:49:00 - 00:17:58:22 Unknown Speaker: But now what can you know that line is mean and that a little melanin that he wrote a long time ago isn’t he and I nothing will happen in that. I can’t do it. Thank you.

00:17:58:22 - 00:18:23:16 Unknown Speaker: In that as it is. I don’t know what. Get the machine on on that. My first impression was that it was mixed because the last part of that writing sounded like book. A little style of writing to me. Plus, Donald’s by Bruno was similar to Booker’s, but, Booker’s was probably the most fluent of all the trumpet player that I’ve heard.

00:18:23:16 - 00:18:47:28 Unknown Speaker: But a little. Yeah, of all the modern jazz trumpet player, I mean, he, you know, they’ve always been guys around like Joe Wild or, you know, who really improbable technicians, you know. And before him there was Charlie, Shavers and those guys, you know, who have always been fine musicians. But I thought that Booker was the fastest and smoothest, probably I have ever heard in my life.

00:18:48:01 - 00:18:54:29 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. I mean, but again, yeah. You know that technique. Yeah. The trumpet playing under control. He but he had that well down.

00:18:55:02 - 00:19:09:05 Unknown Speaker: But I could tell you, Donald because, you know, Donald has a lot of facilities. He has a lot of chuck trouble. And it comes through in his playing sometimes, you know, distinguishes a but I enjoyed it. It was probably Jackie’s writing, I guess.

00:19:09:05 - 00:19:11:12 Unknown Speaker: Because it was probably where,

00:19:11:15 - 00:19:17:01 Unknown Speaker: Jackie has been out front with things for a long time.

00:19:17:04 - 00:19:20:27 Unknown Speaker: So for Joe solo and everything, I got five.

00:19:20:29 - 00:19:26:18 Unknown Speaker: Songs, a good four and a half.

00:19:27:14 - 00:19:28:09 Unknown Speaker: well, I mean.

00:19:28:12 - 00:19:28:29 Unknown Speaker: You dig.

00:19:28:29 - 00:19:32:10 Unknown Speaker: I mean, yeah, you can mess with that.

00:19:32:12 - 00:19:54:19 Unknown Speaker: Oh, no. No, that’s okay. Can you talk about putting things in their own context, listening to them the way they’re supposed to be? I don’t know when this might have been recorded, but whenever it would have been recorded, it would be. The performance was superb. And as long if this group was just too much.

00:19:54:21 - 00:19:57:22 Unknown Speaker: Maybe the challenging thing about it before the record was up.

00:19:57:24 - 00:20:18:26 Unknown Speaker: Oh, I said this was the the first small band during the big band era. I say, that made me sit up and take notice and say, wow, because the musicianship was superb, the ideas were superb. They swung and O’Neil Spencer was a fantastic drummer. Charlie Sheen was once again was a crazy trumpet.

00:20:18:26 - 00:20:19:24 Unknown Speaker: Player.

00:20:19:27 - 00:20:26:18 Unknown Speaker: And Buster Bailey was a great guy. Everybody was great. Who came first? Pro Corp of Benny Carter?

00:20:27:04 - 00:20:28:21 Unknown Speaker: I think that came up in the same area.

00:20:28:23 - 00:20:41:25 Unknown Speaker: Hey, listen, you got nothing to do with that record but chronological as being. You’ve heard them before. You heard. So I thought them. Yeah. I don’t really remember who will roll out here first.

00:20:41:28 - 00:20:42:26 Unknown Speaker: I heard them first.

00:20:42:26 - 00:20:44:05 Unknown Speaker: Both of them having heard this band.

00:20:44:20 - 00:20:44:27 Unknown Speaker: yeah.

00:20:45:04 - 00:21:11:15 Unknown Speaker: Okay. Listen. Yeah. so funny story, they made some transcriptions years ago when transcriptions were the thing, and we had one radio station in our hometown of Tallahassee, and they had of, great transcription by the John Kirby group, and, I heard this group when the station first came on the air, one of the first transcriptions they used to play, they played things like Mad in Melnick or something like that, and follow it with the John Kirby transcription.

00:21:11:15 - 00:21:18:16 Unknown Speaker: And we just glued to the radio, you know.

00:21:19:04 - 00:21:29:06 Unknown Speaker: For five times.

00:21:29:08 - 00:21:31:17 Unknown Speaker: On that.

00:21:31:19 - 00:21:38:26 Unknown Speaker: He listen, you know, he played so many funny instruments. I don’t know where that second one. I know it wasn’t the first. I thought it was an outdoor one. And the one that also it must have been.

00:21:38:26 - 00:21:39:22 Unknown Speaker: The Manzella on the.

00:21:39:22 - 00:21:50:14 Unknown Speaker: Street or whatever. Another one that. But he sounded better on the second solo. I like what he played better on, on the second solo than on the on the tenor solo that he played.

00:21:50:18 - 00:22:29:05 Unknown Speaker: I think it was a soprano. And that sounded good. Yeah. I have long been a Roland Kirk supporter. I know for more reasons than that one. first of all, it amazes me that he can play all in all, at one time. You know? And, second, I love, like, he’s genuinely talented. I would I would shudder to think of what he would sound like if he was, anybody’s ordinary saxophone player who played every day playing with the cats and just swinging along and so forth, you know, because I think he’s really got a lot of talent on the outside.

00:22:29:05 - 00:23:01:13 Unknown Speaker: But, the organ player must have been a piano player because I noticed he letters his figure that he’d been playing throughout go when he started playing his own solo. I know he’s got two keyboards and he had a bass player, so, you know, it seems to me that he could have kept it going. You know, in fact, I thought that was the weakest part of the record, dog until, you know, not his solo was bad because it was interesting, but not really, you know, nothing except, all in all, it was a pretty good record.

00:23:01:15 - 00:23:06:25 Unknown Speaker: And because of its uniqueness, I think it’s even more.

00:23:06:27 - 00:23:07:23 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. Kept playing all.

00:23:07:23 - 00:23:15:13 Unknown Speaker: Along. Yeah. You know, the only way I could tell he was roll great was he blew his siren. Yeah. Is that how you know that went?

00:23:15:14 - 00:23:33:15 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I didn’t get it until he played the sign. Because I told Cannonball a regular guy, and I didn’t recognize the tenor player, but I didn’t say anything else about it. And then the the, the second solo that I thought was an alto, our first. And then began to sound it did sound like soprano. Yeah. And then I thought that this, this solo and much better.

00:23:33:15 - 00:23:40:24 Unknown Speaker: I was killing me because I couldn’t think of a minute who played soprano saxophone. It definitely wasn’t trained, and it certainly wasn’t Steve Lacy.

00:23:40:27 - 00:23:43:09 Unknown Speaker: And it certainly wasn’t only that, you know.

00:23:43:11 - 00:23:47:06 Unknown Speaker: And I didn’t know who it was for a minute, because the soprano solo to me was very good.

00:23:47:06 - 00:23:52:17 Unknown Speaker: To show him.

00:23:52:19 - 00:24:01:20 Unknown Speaker: That, and I don’t know, I don’t remember it played like it was supposed to play. All right.

00:24:01:22 - 00:24:05:12 Unknown Speaker: For Roland Kirk and so forth. Post.

00:24:05:14 - 00:24:09:26 Unknown Speaker: I agree. Yeah.

00:24:09:28 - 00:24:12:18 Unknown Speaker: That was a so.

00:24:12:21 - 00:24:30:11 Unknown Speaker: And I know Roman Latin and I’ve heard him play these estimates a lot. And sometimes because it’s difficult playing to a very handsome effect that he gets out of tune on one another. Yeah, I was particular now that I think about it, that particular and knocked out with this particular record because he managed to stay in tune. Yeah.

00:24:30:11 - 00:24:34:29 Unknown Speaker: He managed to keep both momentum very well all the way.

00:24:35:01 - 00:24:52:08 Unknown Speaker: Yeah.

00:24:52:10 - 00:25:11:14 Unknown Speaker: Okay.

00:25:11:17 - 00:25:18:18 Unknown Speaker: Oh, that’s all right.

00:25:18:20 - 00:25:23:21 Unknown Speaker: You should have seen us all sitting around here counting five beats to the bar.

00:25:24:02 - 00:25:35:02 Unknown Speaker: nobody was dancing and.

00:25:35:04 - 00:25:36:16 Unknown Speaker: Who thought this up? Jake?

00:25:36:16 - 00:25:40:27 Unknown Speaker: Who was it? Leonard Feather wrote that Leonard Feather.

00:25:41:00 - 00:25:49:08 Unknown Speaker: You guys did the encyclopedia right? He is a kokanee,

00:25:49:10 - 00:25:54:23 Unknown Speaker: Yeah, yeah. What’s this we’re going to get? I’m going down to New Orleans to hear.

00:25:54:23 - 00:26:00:10 Unknown Speaker: You hear about a 12, five years. I don’t know much about that. I’m going down there to hear it on the.

00:26:00:10 - 00:26:23:07 Unknown Speaker: Way out to the coast next week. You have no idea how it sounds, Know? You can have a word to that means. Well, well, I guess I’ll tell you what we’ve got. We’ve got we don’t have any, five beats to the bar, Dick, but we got some five voices to the bar. You we can do with a very touching thing.

00:26:23:07 - 00:26:36:28 Unknown Speaker: Are you folks ready with your handkerchiefs? Because this is a very touching thing for Father’s Day. I’d like to have the proper respect during the rendition of the number.

00:26:37:00 - 00:26:42:02 Unknown Speaker: One.

00:26:42:21 - 00:26:43:21 Unknown Speaker: the.

00:26:43:23 - 00:26:46:02 Unknown Speaker: No one seems to realize the.

00:26:46:04 - 00:26:47:24 Unknown Speaker: Different way, you know. Yeah.

00:26:47:27 - 00:26:49:15 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. I’d like to hear you play.

00:26:49:18 - 00:26:52:23 Unknown Speaker: You could probably play in a strictly modern context if you felt like it.

00:26:52:25 - 00:27:04:17 Unknown Speaker: Maybe I could land. I don’t know, I think the main thing with that is the feeling. The facility. Yeah. Which I think, legitimate training gives you, I know.

00:27:04:25 - 00:27:05:26 Unknown Speaker: yeah.

00:27:05:28 - 00:27:24:20 Unknown Speaker: I don’t know Miles Davis. I never met him, but. And I had never met, Clifford Brown before he died. I admired him a great deal and dizzy. But I know that these men had to be, well, school on the instruments to be able to get around him. You know, it’s one thing to be able to think of an idea, and it’s another thing to be able to perform the idea.

00:27:24:21 - 00:27:34:04 Unknown Speaker: So when you get these great, jazz thoughts in your mind, it’s necessary to have the facility to to play the ideas you think of.

00:27:34:06 - 00:27:38:22 Unknown Speaker: But did you actually become aware of the of the modern jazz things pretty soon after they started like.

00:27:38:24 - 00:27:40:29 Unknown Speaker: Oh, yes, I did very much so.

00:27:41:05 - 00:27:42:25 Unknown Speaker: If you were in the service.

00:27:42:28 - 00:27:56:14 Unknown Speaker: Yes, I did, and I got all along. Dizzy always knocked me out of this industry. Clifford Brown and Miles Davis, these guys are great players and I like the way they presented.

00:27:56:14 - 00:28:13:02 Unknown Speaker: And I don’t suppose you I don’t maybe I’m assuming this wrongly but I don’t think you’re going to be hurt in the present context continuously for a long time because it seems to me that the the kind of band you have now, although it’s wonderful for for Dixieland, does limit you to a certain extent.

00:28:13:04 - 00:28:21:10 Unknown Speaker: Yes it does. And and I like to do other things. I want to I want to broaden out and be able to do it. if I can, I’d like to try.

00:28:21:10 - 00:28:29:08 Unknown Speaker: You know, you have the personal ability. I’m sure it’s just a matter of if you can take a larger or more, versatile group on.

00:28:29:08 - 00:28:34:12 Unknown Speaker: The road with you. Yeah, maybe. Maybe we can get to that somehow. So it’s quite difficult.

00:28:34:16 - 00:28:35:23 Unknown Speaker: These guys are very good. What you’re.

00:28:35:23 - 00:28:37:28 Unknown Speaker: Doing. Yes. Good players. And,

00:28:38:04 - 00:28:42:29 Unknown Speaker: And, how did the showmanship develop? Is that sort of a spontaneous thing or what you did? Yeah, it.

00:28:42:29 - 00:29:13:26 Unknown Speaker: Was a sort of a spontaneous thing. And it seemed to me like, people, you know, dug in a lot more when we seemed like we were enjoying what we’re doing, which we we do enjoy. And I’m doing. And I feel like that if that can establish a rapport between the audience and the players. Yeah. And, I feel like it’s a good thing, because then when you get the audience with you and on your side and you can the experiment, so to speak, and, and throw some different things at them that, that they may be, more receptive to.

00:29:13:27 - 00:29:16:10 Unknown Speaker: And they would if you just did it. Cool. You know.

00:29:16:16 - 00:29:20:13 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. Well, it’s not synthetic. I mean, it looks so you’re, you know, it’s really.

00:29:20:15 - 00:29:35:07 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. We we we, yourselves enjoy. Well, and I think you can get a happy swinging feel and playing downhome stuff and minor stuff in the whole deal. As long as you can keep swinging. Yeah.

00:29:35:10 - 00:29:40:29 Unknown Speaker: Well, let’s see if there are any others. My little facts that I need. How tall are you?

00:29:40:29 - 00:29:45:00 Unknown Speaker: Actually, I’m, 6262.

00:29:45:06 - 00:29:47:26 Unknown Speaker: so we’ve seen so many, very few that that I am.

00:29:47:26 - 00:29:51:03 Unknown Speaker: Vital statistics. I like 300 pine. You really do excel.

00:29:51:05 - 00:29:53:09 Unknown Speaker: Yeah, I’m.

00:29:53:12 - 00:29:59:00 Unknown Speaker: Just a little unfit, but I say it makes it more round figure. You know? Really round.

00:29:59:03 - 00:30:01:18 Unknown Speaker: Next I should get you just waist and hip measurements.

00:30:01:20 - 00:30:06:25 Unknown Speaker: You know what? I’m afraid to take?

00:30:07:10 - 00:30:09:04 Unknown Speaker: your family, old big.

00:30:09:06 - 00:30:14:01 Unknown Speaker: No, they’re not as little. And like, a couple of my kids are big.

00:30:14:03 - 00:30:16:19 Unknown Speaker: Oh, I forgot to ask you about when. When were you married? What year?

00:30:16:21 - 00:30:20:03 Unknown Speaker: I was married in 42. 19 years.

00:30:20:05 - 00:30:22:14 Unknown Speaker: It was, it was an amazing.

00:30:22:17 - 00:30:33:11 Unknown Speaker: No, she’s a listener. You know what? she has no air or anything, but she’s, She likes to listen. Yeah. And. Yeah, so far, none of my kids have shown any.

00:30:33:13 - 00:30:34:09 Unknown Speaker: How many boys you have?

00:30:34:13 - 00:30:34:29 Unknown Speaker: Two boy.

00:30:35:05 - 00:30:36:13 Unknown Speaker: Two boys and girls?

00:30:36:16 - 00:30:37:09 Unknown Speaker: Yes.

00:30:38:15 - 00:30:39:29 Unknown Speaker: and none of them show any particular.

00:30:40:02 - 00:31:07:17 Unknown Speaker: Well, they have good time, you know, like, I have a daughter, 14 year old. She. She’s a dancer. She has great time. But, her ear is is not there. And, my son, five. Steve, he wants to play trumpet, and, maybe he’s going to make. And I tried to start him off just a couple of months ago, but he’s just a little to, too young to hold the instrument up, you know?

00:31:07:19 - 00:31:18:13 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. So I’m going to give him another year. I think it’s, It’s pretty important to start at that age. I feel great if I can get an, you know, some good basic fundamentals on him. I think he could be a good player.

00:31:18:20 - 00:31:20:21 Unknown Speaker: How many years of study do you actually have?

00:31:20:24 - 00:31:32:27 Unknown Speaker: Oh, God, I study for many years. I see I’m playing for 31 years now, and I started at age six and studied with the every good teacher I could find until I was a 21.

00:31:33:00 - 00:31:41:03 Unknown Speaker: Yeah. Oh, he really? But you came up at a time when there was no teaching of jazz the way there is. No.

00:31:41:08 - 00:31:45:10 Unknown Speaker: There was no teaching of jazz. That’s right. Oh, legit.

00:31:45:13 - 00:31:47:06 Unknown Speaker: That’s really changed a hell of a lot in the.

00:31:47:09 - 00:31:51:25 Unknown Speaker: It certainly has. It’s changed a great deal. I think it’s all for the better too. Yeah.

00:31:51:27 - 00:31:56:10 Unknown Speaker: Well people weren’t aware that it was a form folk music that could be taught or even taken seriously, I guess.

00:31:56:11 - 00:32:21:05 Unknown Speaker: Right. As long as it’s done in the right order, you know, let’s get the, fundamentals and, down first. Then we go into the jazz play. Yeah. And I find that in a lot of cases, this order is reversed, which is impossible. Yeah. Now you have Miles Davis and Dizzy and, and then you have the guys who try to imitate these players without the facility to imitate in me.

00:32:21:06 - 00:32:21:27 Unknown Speaker: It just doesn’t. Yeah.

00:32:21:28 - 00:32:51:09 Unknown Speaker: Oh, yeah. That’s true. I think I’ll just turn off the tape recorder, write down the names of the guys because. All right period. So I decided to sit down and put on paper what I heard about blues period in Texas I made I made my mind up. I would really be a blues singer.

00:32:51:11 - 00:33:03:09 Unknown Speaker: Unquote. Hargrove. Big had been South.

00:33:03:27 - 00:33:11:20 Unknown Speaker: for the first time in 1941.

00:33:13:08 - 00:33:30:16 Unknown Speaker: coming when he went to the bayous. To talk to people. 80 comma, 90 and 100 years old. And. Quote. Got to the roots.

00:33:30:18 - 00:33:39:10 Unknown Speaker: Period. They seemed and seemed to know more about things than young people know.

00:33:39:12 - 00:33:49:23 Unknown Speaker: Period. For a year or two, I did this, Mississippi comma, Georgia comma. And later I was in Florida in the Army.

00:33:49:25 - 00:34:11:19 Unknown Speaker: Period. I went down to all the little towns around Florida and listen to these guys sit in bars drinking beer and playing guitar. Period. And I’d always visit the holiness church anywhere. Church, in any town. I went to.

00:34:11:21 - 00:34:21:05 Unknown Speaker: Unquote.

00:34:27:04 - 00:34:33:13 Unknown Speaker: Paragraph on his new investigation of the Blues.

00:34:33:16 - 00:34:49:01 Unknown Speaker: Big. Got a bunch of records by Walter Brown and Joe Turner. Comma listened. Comma studied. Comma.

00:34:49:03 - 00:34:56:10 Unknown Speaker: Toured Texas and the South again on his own.

00:34:56:12 - 00:35:02:26 Unknown Speaker: And.

00:35:02:29 - 00:35:07:26 Unknown Speaker: Comma, as he says, comma.

00:35:07:29 - 00:35:19:20 Unknown Speaker: Quote. Had to slum. In order to learn some of the things I learned. Period.

00:35:19:23 - 00:35:24:17 Unknown Speaker: I, I stayed raggedy.

00:35:24:20 - 00:35:41:06 Unknown Speaker: So I could make it into places where you couldn’t hardly go. Comma. Way back in the bayous where they wouldn’t accept you. Any other way.

00:35:41:09 - 00:35:58:01 Unknown Speaker: Period. I met people who had been slaves, comma. And they told me stories about slavery and the meaning of a lot of things. I didn’t know. Period.

00:35:59:12 - 00:36:16:01 Unknown Speaker: and copy on page seven from I caught a freight train halfway down the page. That is all the way down to the bottom of page seven.

00:36:16:04 - 00:36:54:19 Unknown Speaker: Where it says, stay there 14 weeks. and then I used to open the show comma with plenty of spirit comma dancing and singing. Period. Willie Bryant was in town. Doing a disc jockey show. And he told me a lot of things about New York, commented. So next thing I know, I’m on the plane. Period. That was in 57, and soon I found myself stranded in New York.

00:36:54:22 - 00:37:13:01 Unknown Speaker: Common, because none of those things he talked about ever happened. Here, and copy from. So I got me a job on page eight.

00:37:13:04 - 00:37:17:12 Unknown Speaker: All the way down to,

00:37:17:14 - 00:37:44:05 Unknown Speaker: The top of page nine, where it says they took the record off the market. Paragraph. Paragraph for a quote. for a while, I was staying with Ben Webster on Long Island, comma. And one night he was late for a TV show without forward. So I drove him there.

00:37:44:07 - 00:37:55:14 Unknown Speaker: Period. They all told Ford to have me sing Dash a spur of the moment thing. Dash.

00:37:55:27 - 00:38:17:28 Unknown Speaker: And dash. And before I knew it, I was on television. Period. I did his show several times, and this led to other things. Comma. Like the great South Bay Festival common, which gave me my first real opening in New York.

00:38:18:01 - 00:38:42:26 Unknown Speaker: Paragraph. Quote. living in Jamaica, Long Island, I wound up singing and, putting on the show and being maitre d at the capacity in Jamaica.

00:38:42:29 - 00:38:46:15 Unknown Speaker: Period.

00:38:46:17 - 00:39:05:12 Unknown Speaker: Then came my first LP, Come of United. Ask comma, sing a set of blues by Langston Hughes. Comma. And from there I went with Nat Pierce’s band into Birdland.

00:39:12:28 - 00:39:36:27 Unknown Speaker: Paragraph. Quote. One night, John Hendricks came in to Birdland. Period. He and I were talking about the tambourine, period. I played it that night at Birdland, and everyone was surprised to see it because nobody ever heard of it in a jazz club.

00:39:36:29 - 00:40:07:25 Unknown Speaker: John and I talked about blues history, comma, and how his father and my father were preachers. Period. Next thing I know, I got the message to come to Monterrey, period. So my biggest break was through a John Hendricks. I got to Monterrey, period. And from there I know. And there I met Herb Townsend of Columbia Records, and he brought me to Los Angeles.

00:40:07:27 - 00:40:16:07 Unknown Speaker: And I started working Silly Man’s Club and doing concerts with Shelly.

00:40:16:10 - 00:40:24:11 Unknown Speaker: Period. I made an album for Columbia.

00:40:24:13 - 00:40:36:19 Unknown Speaker: And it’s due out about now. Karma. So I hope I’m on my way. Unquote.

00:40:36:21 - 00:40:46:03 Unknown Speaker: Paragraph. Big style is unique among blues singers.

00:40:46:15 - 00:40:51:11 Unknown Speaker: period.

00:40:51:13 - 00:41:11:10 Unknown Speaker: Among other attributes, he has the amazing ability to shift unpredictably from an earthy folk blues style. To a sudden fusillade of notes.

00:41:11:12 - 00:41:17:12 Unknown Speaker: Straight out of Bob.

00:41:17:14 - 00:41:20:13 Unknown Speaker: Period.

00:41:23:05 - 00:42:08:26 Unknown Speaker: His explanation of his musical philosophy is enlightening. Cohen quote. I knew bird pretty well. Period. I couldn’t get too close to him because I wasn’t his type of fella, comma. So I had to steer around this comma. But I still admired what he was doing. Period. And at one time. I used to play fast trombone and try to play like J.J..

00:42:08:29 - 00:42:15:17 Unknown Speaker: Paragraphs.

00:42:15:19 - 00:42:33:14 Unknown Speaker: Quote Broonzy and singers like that were a little bit too country for my taste. Period. I think the South tends to slow life down by being so warm.

00:42:33:16 - 00:42:41:08 Unknown Speaker: Comma. Perhaps it means.

00:42:41:11 - 00:43:05:00 Unknown Speaker: Singers do the same thing. Dash. Slow themselves down to a crawl. They wind up here like the people there. Period. But in Kansas City, comma Pete Johnson, those fellows comma. They always move things along at a pretty pace, moved things along and pretty pace.

00:43:05:02 - 00:43:19:26 Unknown Speaker: Period. So in my blues, I try to make a happy medium. Semicolon. Have things with a little bounce. And so you always have something going for you.

00:43:19:28 - 00:43:37:20 Unknown Speaker: Period. Sometimes it’s pretty rough to capture this comma, because some musicians started in the middle of the game and they don’t know the rudiments, period. You try to explain it to them, but it’s like Greek.

00:43:37:22 - 00:43:42:22 Unknown Speaker: Period. This can be pretty rough on singers.

00:43:42:24 - 00:44:05:23 Unknown Speaker: Period. I appreciate those who can play write for me. Comma. And those who can’t. Comma. Well, comma, I just adjust myself to them. And I can do this very easily. You have got a big melody.