Oscar Brown Blindfold Test [transcript]

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:07:27 Oscar Brown: You know.

00:00:08:00 - 00:00:09:28 Oscar Brown: You know, I’m supposed to say who that was.

00:00:10:01 - 00:00:17:07 Leonard Feather: Well, if you think your mother wasn’t an important part of what you think of.

00:00:17:09 - 00:00:22:29 Leonard Feather: When I.

00:00:23:02 - 00:00:55:04 Oscar Brown: The use of the French horns. And then, that’s that horns sounded like things that, that Quincy elements that Quincy likes to work with. yeah. some of it didn’t, it wasn’t operated the way I’ve heard Quincy do it. He gets more little shrieks with his horns. Yeah. You know, we, things. Yeah. But, now, like, you know, I grew up with big bands when I in Chicago, they used to have.

00:00:55:04 - 00:01:15:18 Oscar Brown: Yeah. Base in Ellington, in Lansford and Hinds, and they had tons of them. And Benny Goodman and everybody would come to town. And so I have dug big bands, you know, and this is a, in 1962 big band sound that I dig. I like the way the, I like the organization of the piece. Yeah. It’s return, you know, it’s coherent all the way through.

00:01:15:19 - 00:01:44:16 Oscar Brown: You don’t get lost in it, you know. You know. Yeah. In a sort of subjective maze. they keep bringing you back to a point of reference which they take off and it’s solos, tasteful and swinging and, I like that very much. I think that I like to hear that done more and more. You know, I do like to hear organized jazz, in the sense of, of taking a theme and following it through to its logical, organized, possible parties, you know?

00:01:44:16 - 00:02:02:23 Oscar Brown: Yeah. People who say that jazz has to be all improvization. This is it’s not true. Jazz has big band jazz. There’s always been a combination of both. So they weren’t all just sitting there. Yeah. Improvising. That’s right. They would improvise. at certain points, you know, you’d have your solo flights, which would.

00:02:02:23 - 00:02:04:21 Leonard Feather: Be a guess. Yeah. I mean balance. Yeah.

00:02:04:24 - 00:02:09:24 Oscar Brown: And I would like to see jazz do that even in larger works, you know. and I like this.

00:02:09:27 - 00:02:16:27 Leonard Feather: Would, you know, the writing system, five is the top four is very good, three is good, two is fair, and one is mediocre.

00:02:17:00 - 00:02:20:04 Oscar Brown: Well, you know, I say five. Go.

00:02:20:06 - 00:02:29:19 Leonard Feather: Be careful. You might want to save the five or something even greater, you know. Well, for me it’s very good. five minutes. Sensational.

00:02:29:22 - 00:02:37:09 Oscar Brown: Well, all right, I’ll be conservative. Let’s play for.

00:02:37:11 - 00:02:42:27 Oscar Brown: Five.

00:02:42:29 - 00:02:58:00 Oscar Brown: That’s all you ever that it has a rich. Yeah. Kind of nice voice. And I like the arrangement of that. It’s,

00:02:58:02 - 00:03:11:01 Oscar Brown: It doesn’t say anything sensational to me. No, to me, it’s, you know, a love song rendered, tastefully in no.

00:03:11:04 - 00:03:11:23 Leonard Feather: Conventional.

00:03:12:00 - 00:03:28:23 Oscar Brown: You’re right. right. I don’t know who the singer is. Somebody who sings Susie Smith has a kind of voice. but, you know, I haven’t heard. I’m not familiar enough with him. And.

00:03:28:25 - 00:03:37:29 Oscar Brown: It’s a good, strong voice. I’d like to hear him do, some more disappointing fishing. Ballsy material.

00:03:38:01 - 00:03:47:24 Leonard Feather: so. Well, used to before I say. All right, it would good to bear,

00:03:47:26 - 00:03:51:27 Oscar Brown: Well, three. I mean, it’s it’s good for. Yeah, for what it is as far as it goes.

00:03:51:27 - 00:03:57:05 Leonard Feather: Is Joe Williams really? Yeah.

00:03:57:07 - 00:04:02:14 Oscar Brown: Well, you know, I sound like somebody anything. I sound like somebody who is close to Joe Williams, but, not Joe Williams.

00:04:02:17 - 00:04:10:27 Leonard Feather: Yeah, well, he’s making a lot of records like that now, you know, completely pop back, which I think is, a pity.

00:04:10:29 - 00:04:14:18 Oscar Brown: Because, well, it’s rough, I tell you. It’s rough. Define material.

00:04:14:20 - 00:04:19:29 Leonard Feather: Yeah, but Joe’s just.

00:04:20:02 - 00:04:28:08 Oscar Brown: You know, it’s kind of like my Three Tenors. and,

00:04:28:11 - 00:04:47:16 Oscar Brown: You know, some very, Nice, you know, swinging, solos. Because the ensemble, he, you know, wasn’t the ensemble pushing wasn’t, Much more than an excuse to get into the into the tenor work.

00:04:47:17 - 00:04:48:17 Leonard Feather: Yeah, that’s right.

00:04:48:20 - 00:05:25:25 Oscar Brown: Into the solo work. But, as far as it went, it was it was groovy. I say it as far as that went, because I like to see again. And you hear, hear. I’m. It’s not fair to judge these guys for what they were doing because. But what I would like to see done. Well, but I would like to see, again, more thinking out of jazz ideas of, more effort to make a, an emotional point.

00:05:25:27 - 00:05:26:27 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:05:27:00 - 00:05:51:11 Oscar Brown: You know, like that it’s coherent and and decisive in its in its way. this is very good. And as an illustration of the possibilities, the instrument and of each man’s versatility with his horn. Yeah. But, I would like to see him, you know, do some a little more social, useful work.

00:05:51:13 - 00:05:53:26 Leonard Feather: Yeah, I see your point.

00:05:53:28 - 00:05:57:13 Oscar Brown: So you say, oh, I think me three is cool.

00:05:57:13 - 00:06:00:27 Leonard Feather: Yeah, well, it is enough, I feel.

00:06:00:29 - 00:06:05:10 Oscar Brown: Because I never, you know, I’m not able to come up with the names of who it is, but,

00:06:05:13 - 00:06:07:06 Leonard Feather: I know somebody that’s,

00:06:07:10 - 00:06:39:19 Oscar Brown: Probably, well, I guess good. Right? You know, that’s, that’s really, you know, so beautiful that what he’s talking into, he’s setting it up and he’s talking about the he says the great slip. And then he says, yeah, I’m great with the piano, actually. Beautiful. Yeah. It’s, That’s like, I know, as I say, I don’t know who it is, but he’s one of my teachers.

00:06:39:21 - 00:06:45:12 Oscar Brown: He’s one of the guys, who really laid it down and showed the possibilities of it.

00:06:45:12 - 00:06:46:24 Leonard Feather: And that’s really.

00:06:51:14 - 00:07:14:04 Oscar Brown: And it’s got that that beautiful kind of poetry that’s, you know, of this focused kind of poetry where he said, I’m not a fool and you can’t put me in harness like I’m you. You know, that is a thing which is is really a vital kind of image, you know, image. So even whoever it is is not just, you know, he’s he’s a street storyteller.

00:07:14:04 - 00:07:39:08 Oscar Brown: He is in the sense of minstrel, you know, not, using the spirit of minstrel, we’re not sure, like, the southern minstrels of this time, but the the early minstrel. Yeah. The guy who had the story to tell. And he said it, as you said. Yeah, it’s really basic. It’s beautiful. Kind of. I’d give that, you know, rating things for what they are.

00:07:39:12 - 00:07:41:24 Oscar Brown: Yeah, yeah, I would, I would put that in for you.

00:07:41:25 - 00:07:42:17 Leonard Feather: Yeah, sure.

00:07:42:22 - 00:07:43:25 Oscar Brown: Who is that?

00:07:43:27 - 00:07:46:06 Leonard Feather: His name is Kirby Stidham.

00:07:46:08 - 00:07:46:13 Oscar Brown: no.

00:07:46:14 - 00:07:52:21 Leonard Feather: Never heard it. Never heard him. No.

00:07:52:23 - 00:07:55:02 Leonard Feather: Boy whoever he.

00:07:55:05 - 00:08:14:15 Oscar Brown: Is that’s That’s a whole man that can’t stand up to a big man. And he’s blowing. He’s right with it. That’s beautiful. It’s a you know it’s a big Basie type band. Yeah.

00:08:14:17 - 00:08:17:09 Leonard Feather: It’s the more sophisticated brand of blues. Either make it interesting.

00:08:17:09 - 00:08:36:00 Oscar Brown: Yeah. And please all in the you know there. Yeah. That’s where it, that’s where it goes today. You know, you know with the band all in the cracks. Yeah. And and the singer standing up to it, you know, and still shouting and still swinging and the, the, the horn work, the tenor that came in there, everything was swinging and groovy.

00:08:39:10 - 00:08:39:23 Leonard Feather: Yeah, it’s good.

00:08:39:23 - 00:08:57:02 Oscar Brown: Man, I took that, you know, there again. That’s where it’s going, you know, that’s where it’s going dramatically. You know, that’s where it’s going. Yeah. I keep thinking of this not just for where it is, you know. Yeah, but where is it gonna go now? It’s gotta go in that direction, you know, that’s got that’s going to be on Broadway.

00:08:57:08 - 00:08:59:23 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s right.

00:08:59:26 - 00:09:07:08 Oscar Brown: And that’s going to be some swinging musicals, you know. Yeah. When it happens, you know. And I would like to see this guy, whoever you with it?

00:09:07:11 - 00:09:11:14 Leonard Feather: Me too.

00:09:11:17 - 00:09:25:03 Leonard Feather: Warren.

00:09:25:06 - 00:09:28:09 Leonard Feather: Well he’s mechanical face.

00:09:28:11 - 00:09:33:05 Oscar Brown: Yeah. Now that,

00:09:33:08 - 00:09:45:17 Oscar Brown: That’s a tune that that cannon and that recorded and I don’t remember the name of it, but yeah, I think it’s a beautiful tune. It’s a happy woman know, really happy kind of things.

00:09:45:20 - 00:09:46:29 Leonard Feather: And they want you to write lyrics. Right. But you.

00:09:46:29 - 00:10:13:27 Oscar Brown: Did. You know they didn’t ask me too. I just liked it. I heard it on, on, this record with Nancy Wilson and Cannonball that, I mean. Oh, yeah. And, and, I dug it. But this isn’t the version that I heard, and I don’t know who whose that is, although I dig it, too. You know, I like the, that horn is,

00:10:13:29 - 00:10:36:11 Oscar Brown: Is such a, straightforward kind of statement, you know? Yeah. Unabashed. Yeah. Kind of music goes on into it and feathered, you know, in any cut that like the Pied Piper, you know, I’m going with you, you know. Yeah. And, I guess, it’s a very nice, strong trumpet sound. Yeah. What kind of thing? I like the piano.

00:10:36:14 - 00:10:41:07 Oscar Brown: you know, I like that record very much. That’s for star things. I mean, I like that.

00:10:41:09 - 00:10:43:14 Leonard Feather: Who was that?

00:10:43:17 - 00:10:52:23 Oscar Brown: Well, I’m a Harry Belafonte fan, and,

00:10:52:26 - 00:11:10:23 Oscar Brown: So I like, you know, I tend to like a good deal that Harry Belafonte does. I like this. It’s not the strongest thing he ever did, but,

00:11:10:25 - 00:11:28:21 Oscar Brown: It’s a good. You know, it’s a good, Dramatic kind of reading. And he he knows how to give, good readings. People kind of put Belafonte down. Some people do, because,

00:11:28:24 - 00:11:38:13 Oscar Brown: Because he, is so popular, I think, in a way. And popularity carries with it a certain tendency toward institutionalization.

00:11:38:13 - 00:11:39:20 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s true.

00:11:39:20 - 00:12:15:29 Oscar Brown: You become institutionalized. Yeah. but that’s not a vice, necessarily. No. Here’s a cat who is translating something. Yeah, from way back that needs to be translated and brought to the attention of masses of people. Yeah, he’s able to successfully do that. That’s true. And this is a contribution, as far as I’m concerned, you know, so that, you know, if you can go to a place like, O’Keefe center in, in Canada and sing this before three or 4 or 5000 people who know what the exact thing, but standing room only every night for two weeks.

00:12:16:02 - 00:12:16:18 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:12:16:21 - 00:12:22:27 Oscar Brown: Well, back to it. Yeah. And, I think that,

00:12:23:00 - 00:12:46:07 Oscar Brown: You know, I think what, what he’s able to do this stuff, I have, Been really inspired by the the progress that he has made in the business. Yeah. First of all, that, he went beyond just being oppressed in the business, you know, he went. Yeah, he became a part of the business.

00:12:46:07 - 00:12:46:20 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:12:46:20 - 00:13:00:17 Oscar Brown: And that’s I guess that’s important because, that’s the way it’s got to go. There’s got to be there gotta be Negroes in the producing end of the thing who are able to to, to put together packages of things.

00:13:00:17 - 00:13:01:19 Leonard Feather: And he’s certainly accomplished.

00:13:01:19 - 00:13:20:15 Oscar Brown: That, and he’s accomplished that, you know, as and and he’s done it and still remained an artist, you know. Yeah. And whatever dues he has had to pay for, toward the institution, the establishment and becoming this mass popular figure, I don’t, I don’t fault him for.

00:13:20:17 - 00:13:21:29 Leonard Feather: Yeah. No. Yeah.

00:13:22:01 - 00:13:43:17 Oscar Brown: I, I think that, but he is, one of the important artists at the time, this particular song, I would rate, perhaps only about three and a half stars. Only because I’ve heard him do things that excited me much more. But perhaps, you know, I should hear that some more. That’s often the.

00:13:43:17 - 00:13:49:20 Leonard Feather: Case, to number of people to be focusing,

00:13:49:23 - 00:14:29:22 Oscar Brown: As a singer with enough musicianship to be Betty Carter. And of course, the song is Abby’s, lyric to, Nuh Oh, I don’t know. Happy to know. Yeah, that’s Abby Lincoln’s words. And I welcome that because I think, that is, but and this is, you know, yeah. Tried, you know, always in my conversations with her about writing to encourage her to do more and more because she, she has serious statements to make, you know, whether I agree with them all or not.

00:14:29:23 - 00:14:33:07 Oscar Brown: Yeah. she doesn’t approach the thing lightly at all.

00:14:33:07 - 00:14:35:03 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s right.

00:14:35:05 - 00:15:00:21 Oscar Brown: Which is interesting when you consider the, blues lyric. I mean, the, the jazz lyric writers, the lyricists who approach jazz, now and I think more and more in the future will, tend to deal with much broader kind of themes than Tin Pan Alley has done. John Hendricks, when you listen to what John Hendricks is saying, that’s right.

00:15:00:21 - 00:15:29:01 Oscar Brown: It’s always talking, to some life point. Yeah. That’s right. and Abby does this, Abby doesn’t just sit down to, to say Moon in June. Yeah. She sits down to say something about life that is more reflective. Yeah. Than you find in pop music generally. so I’m really glad that singer. was it was excellent.

00:15:29:04 - 00:15:45:17 Oscar Brown: chose that material. Yeah. And, Abby has recorded the same thing much up, you know, tempo from there. But this one is, is, very valid kind of statement of, of a serious.

00:15:45:19 - 00:15:47:13 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:15:47:15 - 00:15:51:27 Oscar Brown: And good thing. Who was the singer?

00:15:52:00 - 00:15:57:14 Leonard Feather: first of all, he didn’t say anything about the fact it was just voice and piano. Oh.

00:15:57:16 - 00:16:23:23 Oscar Brown: Yeah. Well, you know, I got I got kind of lost, I guess. Yeah. So it is, yeah. Well, that. Yeah. You know, it’s it’s a it’s a piece of, it’s a piece of poetry. Yeah. It’s in a poetic reading. How would you really. I’d like to do something like that. Where you didn’t get too involved.

00:16:23:26 - 00:16:35:24 Oscar Brown: Where you have something to say? to just focus on what it is that’s being said. Yeah. That’s right. well, I’d give that for,

00:16:35:26 - 00:16:39:17 Leonard Feather: It’s, an album. See?

00:16:39:19 - 00:16:55:12 Oscar Brown: Such a sort of lazy man’s writer I did, this is a lazy writer’s way of getting an article done, in a sense, because I have wanted to write an article about this subject. Yeah, but I haven’t, taken the time. Or really, have you?

00:16:55:12 - 00:16:58:17 Leonard Feather: Like, I could put this under your byline to let me do some.

00:16:58:17 - 00:17:02:25 Oscar Brown: Well, I’m supposed to. Oh, now, this might be pretty cool.

00:17:02:27 - 00:17:04:09 Leonard Feather: Shall I? Well.

00:17:04:11 - 00:17:16:06 Oscar Brown: Let’s see what. Let me let me let me tell you what I, what I am thinking about. Yeah, a lot of people ask me, what actually happened with Keith?

00:17:16:08 - 00:17:19:08 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s why I didn’t ask you. Because I’m sure you heard about this.

00:17:19:08 - 00:17:43:27 Oscar Brown: Every day I get asked that. You know what? You know my answer. You get the sort of set answer to question that you get asked every day for something that’s going to service everybody you know. Otherwise you can’t keep going through those changes. That’s right. So, my answer, and it’s as honest an answer as I can can find, is that it died of inexperience.

00:17:43:29 - 00:18:11:22 Oscar Brown: Yeah, I know that. It was my first time. Yeah. trying for, Broadway. Yeah. I had never been involved in a major theatrical production in any capacity before in my life, so I didn’t, so I was learning from the get go. I was learning from the time I started writing. Yeah. The thing, you know. Well, the producers were also neophytes.

00:18:11:24 - 00:18:17:24 Oscar Brown: I don’t know that some of the old established producers wouldn’t even the the work in the first place.

00:18:17:26 - 00:18:19:08 Leonard Feather: They wouldn’t have gotten, you know.

00:18:19:10 - 00:18:42:06 Oscar Brown: So, they were neophytes. Everybody involved wanted Kix and company to be young and vital and fresh and swinging. You know, they wanted to to inject jazz into Broadway and the idiomatic dances that the kids were doing and had that kind of vitality going forward. So you didn’t want to get stuck off in the,

00:18:42:09 - 00:18:49:02 Unknown Kind of, limp wristed bands and,

00:18:49:05 - 00:19:14:13 Oscar Brown: Ricky take arrangements with you? Yeah. Frequently here in Broadway. So we wound up with a whole lot of fresh, viable people around us. In fact, the whole staff average maybe about 30 years of age staff and cast of kids whose company was about 30 years old and a lot of them were newcomers. so, you know, we’re trying the thing for the first time now on Broadway.

00:19:14:16 - 00:19:20:20 Oscar Brown: Even the old pros don’t know all the answers, and the newcomers don’t even know all the questions.

00:19:20:27 - 00:19:21:26 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:19:21:28 - 00:19:39:24 Oscar Brown: Well, who to ask? Sure. You know, so it’s, It’s the kind of thing in which it’s easy to get lost. Really? Yeah. if you just look at the mortality rate for the last season, kicks in company may have been among the more spectacular failures simply because of.

00:19:39:24 - 00:19:40:22 Leonard Feather: It, because of the.

00:19:40:24 - 00:19:59:11 Oscar Brown: Publicity in advance, and all in the unique way in which the money was raised for it. But the fact is that every year and this year in particular, the millions of dollars are dropped on productions that, for one reason or another, even with the guidance of the oldest of pros, don’t make it well.

00:19:59:11 - 00:20:18:17 Leonard Feather: Look at the ones that even supposedly do, probably Victoria’s rent for about eight months and it lost a fortune. You know, when it close, it turned out that it had been a loser all along. Yeah, I saw it. Yeah, that was a mildly amusing show, but I never thought it would run as long as it did. Yeah. And, I guess it didn’t mean anything anyway, because, as I say, it was just financially disastrous, you know?

00:20:18:17 - 00:20:25:16 Leonard Feather: And so I don’t know whether they were any better off in effect than you are. You at least didn’t have to the humiliation coming to New York and from losing money there.

00:20:25:20 - 00:20:35:26 Oscar Brown: Well, let’s see, that’s not it. As far as I’m concerned, the problems of the theater, cost wise, economically. objective.

00:20:35:28 - 00:20:37:17 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s right.

00:20:37:20 - 00:20:51:28 Oscar Brown: problems that anybody who goes to the thing has to face, you know, as a Negro writer. And because you’re getting, you know, you talking about when you’re talking about, Ali. David.

00:20:52:00 - 00:20:55:10 Leonard Feather: Yeah, he’s a talented writer.

00:20:55:12 - 00:21:01:27 Oscar Brown: But you’ve got to be able to get there. You’ve got to be able to try. You have to have this. And this is the point I want to make. You have to have the right to fail.

00:21:02:03 - 00:21:02:29 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s right.

00:21:03:00 - 00:21:09:23 Oscar Brown: The right to fail is even more important than the right to succeed. Because if you got to hit a homerun every time you get up to bat, forget it.

00:21:09:26 - 00:21:11:01 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s true.

00:21:11:03 - 00:21:19:04 Oscar Brown: You know? But but it’s the right to be able to try and try again. Yeah. If at first you don’t succeed, that is vital.

00:21:19:06 - 00:21:19:11 Leonard Feather: To.

00:21:19:11 - 00:21:41:23 Oscar Brown: The whole, to the whole thing. Because that’s the only way you can learn. nobody can come full blown as I say, you need. First of all, you need subsidy of some sort. I had my father helping me, up to the point where I was able to help myself. Yeah. Just to sit in. Right. Because nobody there’s not there’s no great demand in this country for playwrights.

00:21:41:23 - 00:21:45:12 Oscar Brown: I mean, there’s no operative demand that it goes out and says, be a playwright.

00:21:45:17 - 00:21:46:10 Leonard Feather: Yeah. You know.

00:21:46:10 - 00:21:49:23 Oscar Brown: You want to be a playwright. You got to do that on your own time.

00:21:49:25 - 00:21:51:27 Leonard Feather: That’s right. And it forces anyone to become on.

00:21:51:27 - 00:22:19:11 Oscar Brown: That’s right. And, and and it’s hard work. It’s very difficult. And, nobody becomes that overnight. There’s so many details to it. There’s so much to learn in this kind of writing. And, and after you write in getting it translated the way you want it translated, you know, being able to of having a chance to second guess yourself, improve on yourself, be assisted by intelligent, people who work in other departments, in other areas.

00:22:19:11 - 00:22:28:04 Oscar Brown: You know, I can imagine generally what a dance might be like, but I can’t choreograph a dance. I bring it to life, and I can’t tell how vital it’s going to be. Or flat.

00:22:28:10 - 00:22:28:29 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:22:29:01 - 00:22:54:12 Oscar Brown: At a particular point until I see it. Yeah. You know, so you have to have that kind of, of of experience. You have to be able to know people who can do things if you don’t know that. And the only way to come is to come naked as I did. Yeah. And, you know, if people say, hey, he’s naked, you know, you just have to say, well, I’m sorry, maybe.

00:22:54:12 - 00:23:03:25 Oscar Brown: But, you know, I had, this is all. I didn’t have nothing to wear. Yeah, I had to come. this way in order to put on the clothing of experience.

00:23:03:25 - 00:23:04:19 Leonard Feather: Yeah. You know.

00:23:04:26 - 00:23:15:01 Oscar Brown: And so don’t put me down. I don’t feel humiliated or drunk or anything that kicks in company. Doesn’t make it, because unless I try, there’s no apprenticeship in this business.

00:23:15:01 - 00:23:16:29 Leonard Feather: No. The experience, I’m sure, was.

00:23:17:02 - 00:23:39:19 Oscar Brown: Where do you go? Where do you. Because you’re either writing for Broadway or you’re not. Yeah. You know, if you’re writing Off Broadway, you’re not writing for Broadway. You’re not going into a $400,000 budget situation. You’re not going into this kind of union cost and that kind of union cost. You’re not going to get the, you know, the whole objective situation of how long it takes to set up the production, the five weeks rehearsal and all that, where you’ve got to be at a particular time.

00:23:39:21 - 00:23:57:23 Oscar Brown: Nothing gives you for that particularly. Yeah. You know, you you are not necessarily finding the people who can take this work on the Broadway and put it up there. Yeah. In the big league of American theater, the only way for you to do that is to go in there. You don’t know whether you can swim until you get in the water.

00:23:57:23 - 00:24:04:01 Oscar Brown: I don’t care how much instruction you get on the side of the pool. Yeah, until you take the plunge. Yeah. You don’t know whether you’re ready or not.

00:24:04:07 - 00:24:04:23 Leonard Feather: That’s true.

00:24:04:25 - 00:24:25:01 Oscar Brown: And, you got to swim around a while, you know, and really get wet to become a playwright. And nobody on top has gotten there without having the right to fail. Hammerstein Rodgers learned lo anybody. They have all been able to be defeated and come back.

00:24:25:04 - 00:24:25:29 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:24:26:02 - 00:24:27:21 Oscar Brown: Because that’s the way the theater operates.

00:24:27:24 - 00:24:29:02 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:24:29:04 - 00:24:51:14 Oscar Brown: And as a as a Negro writing for the theater and aspiring to write, you know, do more things and to be associated with people who are writing things as an actor and a director in any department that I’m qualified to operate. I welcome any legitimate shot you get.

00:24:51:16 - 00:24:52:05 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:24:52:07 - 00:25:11:12 Oscar Brown: That’s right. Whether it comes out right on the dues books or not, you know, in terms of money. Yeah, I think the people who invested $400,000 in kicks in Carney did the right thing. you know, whatever regrets any of them may have and none of them have really expressed any regrets to me, you know, not not not they’re not embittered.

00:25:11:13 - 00:25:12:24 Oscar Brown: They don’t feel that they got taken.

00:25:13:00 - 00:25:13:24 Leonard Feather: Yeah. No, I’m sure.

00:25:13:24 - 00:25:29:07 Oscar Brown: It was a tried and they believed in what we were trying to say. Yeah. And they, they, you know, they invested the money and this is the only way I see. As a.

00:25:29:10 - 00:25:43:11 Oscar Brown: As an aspirant in Chicago to be in show business, the Colts, I used to.

00:25:43:13 - 00:26:14:21 Oscar Brown: Go to meetings. You know, we have we call together a committee for the Negro in the arts. This the that, you know, the Negro theater and the, we would all sit around and entertain ourselves because we were frustrated. You know, why aren’t we there? You need to be in there. And perhaps an organization of some sort would would be formed out of this, you know, and the organization would plod along.

00:26:14:23 - 00:26:21:26 Oscar Brown: sincerely, but sort of hopelessly. Yeah. Until finally you just fell under the weight of, nothing.

00:26:21:26 - 00:26:22:25 Leonard Feather: Happened in desperation.

00:26:22:25 - 00:26:43:03 Oscar Brown: Yeah. You know, nothing really happened. The best organization, theatrical organization for the Negroes now, I said I haven’t participated in was kicks in Company A production. Got this. Involve Negroes doing this and Negroes doing that, Negroes doing the other thing, you know, bringing them in. They’re dancing, they’re singing, they’re doing this, they’re getting experience, you know, and they’re getting paid.

00:26:43:10 - 00:26:44:24 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s right.

00:26:44:27 - 00:26:59:27 Oscar Brown: There’s bread for it, you know. And if it falls down God it just falls down. So did we take the town even though it had, Robert Preston in it. It didn’t get out of Philadelphia, you know.

00:27:00:02 - 00:27:04:18 Leonard Feather: Well, Lena had a show last year in New Haven, didn’t she?

00:27:04:20 - 00:27:07:05 Oscar Brown: Oh, no. No, that was that was a concert thing. I think.

00:27:07:05 - 00:27:07:24 Leonard Feather: No, I think it was.

00:27:07:24 - 00:27:08:26 Oscar Brown: It was the.

00:27:08:26 - 00:27:09:19 Leonard Feather: Musical.

00:27:09:21 - 00:27:12:09 Oscar Brown: Yeah. but I mean, I’m that’s I’m not just.

00:27:12:09 - 00:27:13:26 Leonard Feather: Talking about any big things that have fallen.

00:27:13:27 - 00:27:30:23 Oscar Brown: Oh, yeah. Look at this thing that George Gobel was in. That was, another version of Three Men on a horse. Didn’t last. Yeah. I don’t know how much money they made on Sail Away, but it kind of came and went even with Noel Coward. Yeah. You know, they come and go and they follow the.

00:27:30:23 - 00:27:32:10 Leonard Feather: Wind at five, I think at least.

00:27:32:11 - 00:27:45:09 Oscar Brown: Fall down. Well, that’s just that’s the theater. No, the question that it shouldn’t be this expensive. There should be this kind of assistance and that kind of assistance is another is another point, you know, and worthy of debate. probably that people.

00:27:45:09 - 00:27:46:15 Leonard Feather: Should be a socialized theater.

00:27:46:23 - 00:27:56:12 Oscar Brown: Well, it’s all right. I would think that, my my desire for that is tempered by, like, what would the socialized theater have been under the Eisenhower administration?

00:27:56:14 - 00:28:00:06 Leonard Feather: Well, they would have had to have started under Roosevelt, which it did in effect, you know.

00:28:00:06 - 00:28:11:06 Oscar Brown: Yeah, but you know what I mean? Like if if we’re going to wind up with General Walker as the Commissioner of Culture, then I don’t want them socialized. Yeah, well, it depends on who’s doing it.

00:28:11:06 - 00:28:12:08 Leonard Feather: And what does a down to.

00:28:12:12 - 00:28:33:14 Oscar Brown: What the point will probably be quite valid today under Kennedy. I would have some some hope for it. You know, I would, I would, but I would be, you know, Fred Goldwater would win the next election. yeah. We’d be in a world of trouble because Goldwater wouldn’t want us those last there. So then he would just abolish it.

00:28:33:14 - 00:28:39:27 Oscar Brown: But you know, you know what I mean? That’s you could get,

00:28:40:00 - 00:28:45:03 Oscar Brown: You could end up with a bad situation. It wouldn’t. It’s not necessarily the only. Oh, I.

00:28:45:11 - 00:28:46:03 Leonard Feather: Is the.

00:28:46:06 - 00:28:46:24 Oscar Brown: Thing.

00:28:46:26 - 00:28:48:17 Leonard Feather: Could provide an outlet that.

00:28:48:19 - 00:28:50:17 Oscar Brown: Was very much, well, some sort of subsidy.

00:28:50:17 - 00:28:52:19 Leonard Feather: Constant hassle about getting back, as you know.

00:28:52:19 - 00:29:20:08 Oscar Brown: You’re right. Some sort of subsidy is necessary. but then, of course, one of the problems is that the theater is not. The theater in America is not for the masses in America is not even aimed at them. You know, some guy in New York wrote an article where he was criticizing the fact that Kix and company raised its money on television from among people who generally didn’t invest in the theater.

00:29:20:10 - 00:29:41:09 Oscar Brown: What is absurd? Of course they should. Why shouldn’t they? Oh, yeah, you should go out into the hinterlands if you can and get everybody involved in the theater. Kix and company did a whole bunch of wonderful things. Yeah, it involved more Negroes as investors than have ever put any money in any play in the Broadway. You know, in the history of American theater.

00:29:41:11 - 00:30:08:15 Oscar Brown: No more. Over. Well over $100,000 came from Negro investors for the first time. Yeah. You know, this is important. This is involvement. People you talk about people’s capitalism and this that you’re going to have to have a theater in which everybody can feel some association, some sense of a source of participation. That means that you’re going to have to have plays that are not just for the tired businessmen.

00:30:08:18 - 00:30:29:21 Oscar Brown: Yeah. Come on. Hops to New York and picks up a couple of tickets and sleeps through the second act. Yeah, but it’s going to have to be something that’s aimed at seeing something vital, fresh. Yeah. That’s right. Two people everywhere. Oh, that’s all right. I think you just ran over a bad spot.

00:30:29:28 - 00:30:44:28 Leonard Feather: You just want to say, oh.

00:30:45:00 - 00:30:54:06 Leonard Feather: Hello. Sounds of Synanon record review in downbeat style.

00:30:54:09 - 00:31:03:02 Leonard Feather: list the title, the songs.

00:31:03:04 - 00:31:33:25 Leonard Feather: The personnel and then rating four and a half stars.

00:31:33:28 - 00:31:36:28 Leonard Feather: You have.

00:31:37:00 - 00:31:38:22 Leonard Feather: How many times we’ve been out here?

00:31:38:24 - 00:31:55:21 Oscar Brown: Oh, this is my, third or fourth trip to, Los Angeles. Actually, it’s only my second trip of any duration. The first two times I came out here,

00:31:55:24 - 00:31:56:22 Leonard Feather: When was the first time?

00:31:56:27 - 00:32:12:09 Oscar Brown: The first time was in connection with Kix and company. We had come we being the producers of Kix and company, Bob, Nimrod and Bird, Blue Gulf and I had come out to, Las Vegas to read for Sammy Davis Jr. we were talking too, about playing the role of Mr. Kicks it.

00:32:12:12 - 00:32:17:14 Leonard Feather: Oh yeah, I remember at that at that time it was rumored and reportedly all set. Yes. So,

00:32:17:17 - 00:32:21:29 Oscar Brown: we stayed out in Vegas for a week and then we came down here to read it to Steve Allen.

00:32:22:02 - 00:32:22:16 Leonard Feather: Oh, yeah.

00:32:22:16 - 00:32:44:22 Oscar Brown: And, that was my first trip to Los Angeles, but that was only a couple of days, and I split right back to Chicago as soon as that reading was over. Then, it came out again. It was almost a year later that was, in May to talk to, to audition for the Steve Allen office. Medallion enterprises made money and productions for this jazz in USA.

00:32:44:22 - 00:32:56:16 Oscar Brown: Yeah, I was on my way up to the I. Oh, yes. San Francisco. Yes. So I did that for a month and then, came back to do on June 1st, the 10th gig with Miles. Yeah.

00:32:56:16 - 00:33:02:21 Leonard Feather: Oh, I said, and, you met my wife, Ginger. That’s all right. This is not for rebroadcast. Oh.

00:33:02:24 - 00:33:06:22 Oscar Brown: So. Yeah. How are you? Glad to see me? Yeah.

00:33:06:24 - 00:33:08:10 Speaker 4 I mean, five nights.

00:33:08:13 - 00:33:10:08 Oscar Brown: Mean,

00:33:10:10 - 00:33:13:15 Speaker 4 Excuse me. I’m not dressed or shoes in total.

00:33:13:17 - 00:33:18:13 Oscar Brown: Beautiful. Thank you.

00:33:18:16 - 00:33:20:15 Leonard Feather: So you’re just now beginning to get the feeling, so.

00:33:20:15 - 00:33:34:17 Oscar Brown: Yeah. You really, I began to get the feel of it when I was here at the music box, you know? Yeah. the first time I approached it smugly, you know, and, I guess you like any place where you feel like you’ve done well, and I have. Yeah.

00:33:34:19 - 00:33:45:12 Leonard Feather: Yeah, yeah. No, but I think the life is so relaxed out here, and, people are not always in such a mad rat race for the success thing. And I feel I.

00:33:45:14 - 00:33:47:29 Oscar Brown: Well, I think that that’s, both a vice and a virtue.

00:33:48:04 - 00:33:50:23 Leonard Feather: Yeah. It is, that’s true.

00:33:50:25 - 00:33:59:07 Oscar Brown: It is a virtue in that it does give people time for more reflection. Yeah. More contemplation of what to do.

00:33:59:08 - 00:33:59:29 Leonard Feather: Late to the lethargy.

00:33:59:29 - 00:34:05:02 Oscar Brown: But then, you know, frequently it does, you know, I mean, distances kill you here. yeah.

00:34:05:02 - 00:34:08:22 Leonard Feather: That’s a drag, you know? And, I’m on a timer. 18 months, you know.

00:34:08:28 - 00:34:10:23 Oscar Brown: Kind of says cool.

00:34:10:26 - 00:34:24:27 Leonard Feather: The climate was one of the main reasons I moved. And the fact that we have a lot of friends out here. but, there is a great temptation to go. That thing did go out. Yeah. How about that? Such a short cigaret and still can’t sleep.

00:34:24:29 - 00:34:30:21 Oscar Brown: You know what? A state burns rather slowly, though. That short portion of that is.

00:34:30:24 - 00:34:32:23 Leonard Feather: Well, it should for as little as there is. it.

00:34:32:26 - 00:34:47:11 Oscar Brown: I think you and so I have, I find certain things very exciting out here when, when you look at Los Angeles from the standpoint of television, then it’s faster than New York.

00:34:47:16 - 00:34:48:20 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:34:48:23 - 00:34:51:17 Oscar Brown: That’s true. Yeah. That’s one, one aspect.

00:34:51:20 - 00:34:54:23 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s right. And.

00:34:54:26 - 00:35:18:05 Oscar Brown: When you, look at Los Angeles from the standpoint of a concentration of talent, later in another wave, yeah, it has hit of New York. Yeah. In most areas. That’s true, you know, and it has a greater concentration than, say, Chicago or Cleveland, where you don’t have the center of industry to attract talented people from all over the country to consider, you know, so that’s that’s cool.

00:35:18:05 - 00:35:29:29 Leonard Feather: You know? Yeah. well, you’ll probably be coming out here quite often if you’re going to be doing this. The jazz scene. Well, yes, I’ll be doing like the what’s the. You told me that I go to do most of them in, in California.

00:35:30:00 - 00:35:30:13 Oscar Brown: Just.

00:35:30:16 - 00:35:48:24 Leonard Feather: Occasionally go to New York. That’s actually when they’re out here. Well, that’s that thing is a wonderful idea. I did a column about that for this week. As a matter of fact. and, you quoted Steve a little and I, I think it’s well, it’s the first time anybody has had the right approach to jazz on television.

00:35:48:26 - 00:35:57:16 Oscar Brown: Yeah. That idea, sprung from a young woman who is the producer assistant of the night, for the show now, Penny Stewart.

00:35:57:19 - 00:36:01:15 Leonard Feather: And who, it was Penny responsible. And she is Dee.

00:36:01:18 - 00:36:10:03 Oscar Brown: Dee dee dee made initial inspirational work, you know, good and cooking, you know, it’s great. So she pretty, you know?

00:36:10:06 - 00:36:14:07 Leonard Feather: Yeah, she certainly seems to me, you know, she worked with Steve before and.

00:36:14:09 - 00:36:21:03 Oscar Brown: Yeah. Right. so, you know, I have great, hopes for that show.

00:36:21:06 - 00:36:22:14 Leonard Feather: Yeah, I saw.

00:36:22:17 - 00:36:24:16 Oscar Brown: I mean, it’s good to have a viewpoint.

00:36:24:18 - 00:36:30:03 Leonard Feather: You know, I went to a screening the other day and they showed the Paul Horn one. Yeah. Which I imagine is fairly typical of the way it’ll be.

00:36:30:05 - 00:36:33:04 Oscar Brown: Yeah. Well, the Paul Horn I think was the most successful.

00:36:33:07 - 00:36:35:12 Leonard Feather: It was excellent.

00:36:35:14 - 00:36:40:08 Oscar Brown: The camera work, you know, it’s a very it’s it’s really a jazz show. Yeah. That’s all there.

00:36:40:08 - 00:36:45:22 Leonard Feather: Was to it. Steve said they don’t have to apologize for the music or dress it up or.

00:36:45:25 - 00:36:47:23 Oscar Brown: Dance it up with a whole lot of conversation. Yeah, or.

00:36:47:23 - 00:37:14:07 Leonard Feather: Choreography or something, you know, because usually there’s some way of apologizing for it as a, you know, jazz in itself is not enough for the average viewer. I think it’s reached the stage now, whether it’s a substantial, intelligent audience, five year. Let’s go back to the I think we should get a few basic biographical facts, because I don’t have that doesn’t seem to be too much on these notes.

00:37:14:09 - 00:37:16:28 Oscar Brown: You know, you’d have to fight for, you know, Jack and.

00:37:17:01 - 00:37:18:07 Leonard Feather: You know, like Columbia have.

00:37:18:07 - 00:37:18:24 Oscar Brown: Those.

00:37:18:24 - 00:37:20:00 Leonard Feather: You know, they have a stand about the.

00:37:20:00 - 00:37:21:01 Oscar Brown: Standard beat by Oz.

00:37:21:01 - 00:37:22:06 Leonard Feather: Yeah. When’s your birthday?

00:37:22:06 - 00:37:27:02 Oscar Brown: 10th of October. I’ll be 36.

00:37:27:05 - 00:37:30:08 Leonard Feather: And they have a fairly accurate, detailed biography. Do you guys see, as you.

00:37:30:08 - 00:37:38:16 Oscar Brown: Say, Jack? Well, Columbia or Columbia and frijoles or, Bill, believe.

00:37:38:18 - 00:37:39:24 Leonard Feather: Bill Williams is that in New York?

00:37:39:25 - 00:37:40:28 Oscar Brown: That’s Jesse here.

00:37:41:00 - 00:37:42:25 Leonard Feather: Oh. Does you know, is that Art Weems is. You know, I think.

00:37:42:26 - 00:37:53:10 Unknown I of the.

00:37:53:12 - 00:38:04:28 Leonard Feather: there are some interesting quotes for me here that I think we should. It must be a good jumping off point for a discussion. So, Sam.

00:38:05:00 - 00:38:08:01 Oscar Brown: Who’s playing drum?

00:38:08:03 - 00:38:18:14 Leonard Feather: That’s. My daughter’s playing something. Oh. That’s machine. Yeah, yeah, my daughter can play like that.

00:38:18:16 - 00:38:40:19 Leonard Feather: Most of my work as a Negro, it occurred to me that the more one becomes a success in showbusiness, the less that is true. Well, you know, you’re a big movie. Look at somebody like that call who sprang out of environment that that made him the great artist he was when he was singing blues and playing piano. And then he moved across in a world where he hardly even associates with Negroes, at least unless they’re wealthy, you know.

00:38:40:21 - 00:38:42:06 Leonard Feather: Yeah. Well, there’s an entirely different.

00:38:42:06 - 00:38:47:05 Oscar Brown: Outlook on everything that’s a hang up to me because, well, it’s the hang up in part.

00:38:47:05 - 00:38:48:08 Leonard Feather: Of the success syndrome.

00:38:48:08 - 00:38:51:17 Oscar Brown: This is the Negro. Yeah. Not this. You know, the now that calls.

00:38:51:22 - 00:38:53:05 Leonard Feather: Well, that’s off the record. Yeah.

00:38:53:05 - 00:38:57:06 Oscar Brown: But,

00:38:57:08 - 00:39:00:29 Unknown Well, I think that,

00:39:01:01 - 00:39:05:21 Oscar Brown: Negro experience, I had a big conversation with someone about the.

00:39:05:23 - 00:39:13:00 Unknown Negro experience has something important to say to America and America. Haven’t heard fully yet, you know.

00:39:13:00 - 00:39:42:07 Oscar Brown: Oh, absolutely. You don’t go through, like, 300 years of slavery and all that, you know, without picking up a point of view about things that can be, a contribution to the general thought of the country, you know, and, it’s, it’s focus, you know, it’s gut bucket, it’s down. It’s what it’s where Negroes have live. Yeah, but it still has something strong.

00:39:42:07 - 00:39:51:24 Oscar Brown: It’s the same validity. That’s I feel the life experience of the slave is just as important as the life experience of domestic. If you to add to it that you in life. That’s right.

00:39:51:27 - 00:39:54:01 Leonard Feather: And you can tell a lot of that in your material.

00:39:54:03 - 00:40:03:06 Oscar Brown: Right. So I believe that’s I think you got to stay with it though, you know? I mean, you got to consciously stay with it, not get siphoned off into some ivory tower.

00:40:03:06 - 00:40:19:04 Leonard Feather: Yeah. I’ll tell another interesting thing that a lyric like this, that there 20 years ago or even less would have been considered, uncle Tom and a Negro would have been ashamed to do it because of the because of the, accent of, you know, when it hurt, you know, it’s the kind of thing that would have associated with Stepin Fetchit.

00:40:19:09 - 00:40:24:11 Oscar Brown: You say? Well, not about that. There are other people, but I. I know what you’re talking about.

00:40:24:15 - 00:40:42:24 Leonard Feather: You know what I mean? Well, that’s a child. I suppose that’s a child even that. Yeah. Even then that the, the use of certain consonants, you know, certain substitutions, not something you associate with, used to be associated with Negroes in a derogatory sense and which, as I say, because people are more willing to admit they’re, ugly, proud of their racial association rather than ashamed of it.

00:40:42:24 - 00:40:57:20 Leonard Feather: Nowadays, I think, is coming out of the open. That’s right. Now, you know, what do you have a made a record what’s called that down there? Yeah. Which I thought was very offensive, very anti Negro. A lot of Negroes and whites reacted the same way. And that was a sort of a typical white,

00:40:57:22 - 00:41:04:05 Oscar Brown: I don’t know who to sound. Who that down there. Who. That’s right. I don’t know, being bugged by that, but I remember being bored by a similar thing.

00:41:04:06 - 00:41:09:25 Leonard Feather: Yeah, well, that’s what I mean. At that time, it seemed to be an offensive thing. And yet now, I suppose, the attitude is entirely change.

00:41:09:26 - 00:41:20:09 Oscar Brown: Well, you take, somebody like Paul Lyons Dunbar. Poet. Yeah. Who wrote a Negro idiom. Yeah. That’s right. When, a lot of the when I was a kid, you would put that now.

00:41:20:17 - 00:41:21:08 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:41:21:11 - 00:41:27:21 Oscar Brown: But now, I mean, not you would put that that I wanted. Yeah, yeah. But,

00:41:27:23 - 00:41:29:06 Leonard Feather: Same as in a Langston Hughes this thing.

00:41:29:06 - 00:41:50:05 Oscar Brown: Right. But now what? I remember Langston Hughes. But. But Dunbar was really, you know, like, reconstruction, slavery, that kind of idiomatic way into it, you know? That’s right. And, now I study, you know, I’m trying to call that approach. Yeah, but I’m working on a thing called Slave Story. I don’t want to sound like undergraduates. That would look ridiculous.

00:41:50:05 - 00:42:12:15 Oscar Brown: Not like that. Poetically. it’s got its own beauty and richness and rhythm just like any other. Even that it kind of expresses like a working on a lyric. And, the lyric says in high English, the this let’s see the stallion he gets in the Philly, the river delivers the flood. The nanny goes got by the Billy and you get got by the stud.

00:42:12:16 - 00:42:33:23 Oscar Brown: Now that would mean high English, you know. But like in idiom it comes out, the stallion gets him to Philly. Do it but do a little bit of the the nanny goes got by Billy and you kids got by the stud will be delivered. The flood is much more I see what you’re musical. Yeah. Sounding. Yeah as language than the river delivers.

00:42:33:25 - 00:42:34:26 Leonard Feather: That’s right.

00:42:34:28 - 00:42:41:10 Oscar Brown: Yeah. So so no, you know there’s going to be a lot of resistance from Negroes as well as white people.

00:42:41:11 - 00:42:42:21 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:42:42:24 - 00:43:01:15 Oscar Brown: yeah. There’ll be this great liberal reaction to do don’t talk like that, you know. Yeah. And then there’ll be the, the reaction of the of the. Yes. The oversensitive Negro who doesn’t want to play a slave, a slave and doesn’t want anybody else to play a slave.

00:43:01:17 - 00:43:01:29 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:43:02:00 - 00:43:07:12 Oscar Brown: It’s like he’s going to play him. If Negroes know, you know, and they don’t want to, they don’t talk like this. They want to forget it ever happened.

00:43:07:12 - 00:43:27:06 Leonard Feather: But that’s silly. Of course. Yeah, I agree with you, but it’s only in the context of the changing society and and the awareness of one another’s worlds that this can be accomplished, you know. Right. And this is so did you read in that henhouse piece in Playboy this month about them through the racial looking glass? No, that’s a very good piece.

00:43:27:08 - 00:43:44:02 Leonard Feather: Excellent piece on it goes into every aspect of it. You know, the Black Muslims in all different attitudes, Martin Luther King and everybody. And it’s a pretty, sensitive and one. Yeah, you should read it right back in here.

00:43:44:05 - 00:43:46:13 Oscar Brown: and, this month’s Playboy.

00:43:46:16 - 00:43:58:17 Leonard Feather: And the one. Yeah, the July 1st. I it may not be on. I think it’s on the stands now. I get an advance copy every month, and I write for them occasionally, but, it’s a hell of a piece.

00:43:58:20 - 00:44:18:17 Leonard Feather: Max Roach is a is a case that really bothers me. And I know you must be very close to him. Or at least you must have been at one time, trying to figure out what what Max’s real position is. Where do you draw the line between. Between pride and chauvinism and between, dissatisfaction and bitterness? You know?

00:44:18:20 - 00:44:20:00 Oscar Brown: Well.

00:44:20:03 - 00:44:24:29 Leonard Feather: in his case, I’ve known him a long, long time. And when I first known him, he didn’t seem to be this kind of person.

00:44:25:06 - 00:44:32:26 Oscar Brown: I would rather not personalize it to the point of talking about Max. Max and I love Max, and I, personally.

00:44:32:26 - 00:44:41:26 Leonard Feather: Friends. Yeah. You know, I used to be two, but a long time ago I said to them, well, I’ll play it right.

00:44:41:28 - 00:44:43:05 Speaker 4 I can go time. And, you.

00:44:43:08 - 00:44:45:07 Leonard Feather: Know, I don’t mean that some other day.

00:44:45:09 - 00:44:47:21 Oscar Brown: Yeah. That was, that wasn’t.

00:44:47:24 - 00:44:48:23 Leonard Feather: Oh, no.

00:44:49:00 - 00:44:52:00 Speaker 4 I went back for me later. Yeah. Are you recording.

00:44:52:00 - 00:44:53:03 Leonard Feather: Now? Yeah, I.

00:44:53:03 - 00:44:53:28 Speaker 4 See before you go.

00:44:54:00 - 00:44:58:16 Leonard Feather: Okay. I don’t.

00:44:58:18 - 00:45:00:12 Leonard Feather: Music is like money.

00:45:00:14 - 00:45:03:01 Oscar Brown: Well yeah, I see that. The,

00:45:03:07 - 00:45:05:10 Leonard Feather: What was it you did? If it’s not counterfeit.

00:45:05:12 - 00:45:26:05 Oscar Brown: Then it’s about it. Yeah. the money. Money is all integrated. Yeah. There’s no nobody looks at dollars. And one of black man had it. Yeah. white man. I know, man, it’s just a dollar. Yeah. Now, something that swings a strong musical composition is a guess. I don’t care what you know. A work of art is a work of art.

00:45:26:05 - 00:45:38:24 Oscar Brown: It doesn’t make any difference what color the hands were that did it. I don’t care if Shakespeare was white. She was it, you know, for what he is. Right? And, you know, singles with Beethoven.

00:45:38:28 - 00:45:44:23 Leonard Feather: Yeah. But there’s there is this assumption, that that.

00:45:44:26 - 00:45:52:16 Leonard Feather: Anybody, any white person associated with jazz is, in a sense, a thief, you know, that this music.

00:45:52:19 - 00:45:56:27 Oscar Brown: Finds the Negro and then a Negro who associates with Shakespeare with the.

00:45:57:00 - 00:45:58:29 Leonard Feather: It’s a good answer.

00:45:59:01 - 00:46:18:26 Oscar Brown: That’s a very good I mean to say see imitation as I understand it, is the sincerest form of flattery. Yeah. You know, you know, if I really dig you, I’m going to talk like you can wear shirts like yours. You know, I’m, I’m going to be, known as Leonard Feather again because I dig Leonard leather teeth.

00:46:19:00 - 00:46:34:12 Oscar Brown: And what Leonard with us says and the way he expresses himself. I want to write like Leonard better. Should you be drug with me? Not if I’m plagiarizing your ideas and just stealing that stuff and depriving you. Making a living. Well, that’s that’s that’s a no. But, I mean, if I want to be in your spirit.

00:46:34:19 - 00:46:35:08 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:46:35:11 - 00:46:44:11 Oscar Brown: I’m not robbing you. I’m not doing you. You know, I’m trying to be associated with you. So now, why should I be drug if Paul On wants to play with Miles Davis?

00:46:44:17 - 00:46:45:04 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:46:45:07 - 00:47:00:05 Oscar Brown: Good. You know, one of the nicest things I ever saw was JJ Johnson and wounding. When I came out of Arkansas in the Army in 1955. And these guys in Chicago. Yeah. Stand up side by side. Well I’m sorry. Yeah. You know. Yeah, I want to see, you know, and they worked together.

00:47:00:05 - 00:47:00:26 Leonard Feather: To show.

00:47:00:27 - 00:47:04:17 Oscar Brown: You know, and I don’t want to make a it’s not a thing.

00:47:04:19 - 00:47:21:14 Leonard Feather: Well, that’s the paradox of the whole situation. That’s because a lot of people who have become so embittered by what they’ve suffered, and they have undoubtedly suffered, that they would rather see a completely separate thing. Max would rather never hire a white person again, never associate with a white publisher or a white anybody, and have an entirely separate world.

00:47:21:14 - 00:47:28:18 Oscar Brown: The operative word is bitter. But it was. And that is the hang up. Yeah, bitterness has no place.

00:47:28:24 - 00:47:34:02 Leonard Feather: Yeah, it’s not a creation attitude. No. You dig it. Yeah. You know, it’s not a constructive emotion.

00:47:34:06 - 00:47:44:16 Oscar Brown: It doesn’t. Doesn’t what is it. What is hate ever built. Yeah. What you know what monuments are there to hate. Yeah. Where does anybody go around? Say the haters. This.

00:47:44:19 - 00:47:46:28 Leonard Feather: That’s right.

00:47:47:01 - 00:47:48:26 Oscar Brown: It’s always loved. It builds things.

00:47:48:28 - 00:48:08:16 Leonard Feather: Well, I said that I don’t hate anybody, but nobody’s given ever give me any reason to like white people. Something to that effect. that’s a negative attitude to, you know, in other words, you start out a priori by assuming the worst until they prove themselves. Yeah. you know, if you reverse the situations, like asking a Negro to prove himself before accepting it, if.

00:48:08:16 - 00:48:24:16 Oscar Brown: You follow it down, to its logical, you know, psychological implications, nobody could like anybody. I mean, how can you say, oh, I, I don’t like all white people. What the hell.

00:48:24:18 - 00:48:37:10 Leonard Feather: Howard Brown? Yeah, well, I don’t think Max would ever put it that baldly, but he would he would in effect, say, show me, you know, he wants proof of why he should like anybody. Why should accept him?

00:48:37:12 - 00:48:38:11 Oscar Brown: That’s his problem.

00:48:38:14 - 00:48:54:04 Leonard Feather: Yeah, it is, as you said, as a personal thing. What we have a max is part of a larger picture. You know, this is this is not just Max. There are many, many people, I think, including the entire almost the entire Muslim sect who have attitudes that grew out of this kind of situation out of embarrassment, you.

00:48:54:04 - 00:49:05:22 Oscar Brown: Know, see, look, if you I think the difference I have with them is that they tend to be or seem to me to be vengeance oriented, and I’m not.

00:49:05:24 - 00:49:06:13 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:49:06:16 - 00:49:07:25 Oscar Brown: revenge, you know.

00:49:07:28 - 00:49:09:23 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s right.

00:49:09:25 - 00:49:34:15 Oscar Brown: what I want is, stop. You know, whatever remains of it, cut it up. But, I don’t want to now, vent my spleen by, kicking white people for 300 years. Because if I did that, the result would be that I would become, in 300 years, brutalized as the most brutal of the kickers.

00:49:34:21 - 00:49:35:05 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:49:35:06 - 00:49:42:14 Oscar Brown: You know, and the kick, he would become as soulful as the most soulful Negro you’d ever want to me.

00:49:42:16 - 00:49:44:01 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:49:44:03 - 00:50:01:00 Oscar Brown: You know, they just have to go that way. Yeah, because it’s the experience that makes you like that determines what you are, you know? That’s right. And of course, generations break with other generation. That’s what makes it so hard to raise children is hard for them for for today to communicate with the mob.

00:50:01:07 - 00:50:05:08 Leonard Feather: Yeah. Very true.

00:50:05:11 - 00:50:29:11 Oscar Brown: But things change. And the assumption that there’s no improvement is, suicidal. Obviously, things are better to me. There’s so many more opportunities and and to constantly refuse to participate in progress because it’s not perfection. It’s stupid.

00:50:29:18 - 00:50:30:11 Leonard Feather: Yeah, you.

00:50:30:13 - 00:51:04:23 Oscar Brown: Cause you got to arrive. You can’t write without coming. You got to, get there some kind of way. And to the extent that the Negroes now see prejudice and use that as an excuse for not studying and not getting hit on their craft, whatever it happens to be, not, you know, sharpening their stick for whatever they want to do, particularly in the music field, in, in, in entertainment, race should not make any more difference than it does in baseball.

00:51:04:25 - 00:51:20:15 Leonard Feather: Well, yeah, that’s true, except that admittedly, there are still many, many barriers that you have to face. I mean, I would quite possibly be just as bitter as a lot of other people if I had to face all those barriers because there’s still a quota system in television that’s never openly admitted. But, you know, down a quota system.

00:51:20:15 - 00:51:37:25 Oscar Brown: The television in Hollywood is practically all white. I mean, the few Negroes, they have it. Yeah, it’s it’s not, you know, only the most, abject apologist would apologize for television. I’m not saying that there are not barriers.

00:51:38:02 - 00:51:38:24 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:51:38:27 - 00:51:47:29 Oscar Brown: What I’m saying is that those barriers are no longer sufficient to make a person say, well, I won’t even try because there’s no chance.

00:51:47:29 - 00:51:49:18 Leonard Feather: Yeah. In other words, the hopelessness is.

00:51:49:18 - 00:51:51:06 Oscar Brown: Yeah, that’s that’s gone.

00:51:51:08 - 00:51:52:19 Leonard Feather: Yeah. That’s true.

00:51:52:21 - 00:51:57:03 Oscar Brown: Now if you if you get ready, you know, because,

00:51:57:05 - 00:51:58:29 Leonard Feather: Yeah. Well I think that’s what’s ready now.

00:51:58:29 - 00:51:59:23 Oscar Brown: It’s not open now.

00:51:59:23 - 00:52:18:11 Leonard Feather: It’s going to be open now. That’s what all these movements like the Freedom rides, symbolizing the fact that, there has to be a concentrated effort and nobody will accept the status quo any longer. And, in order to assume that attitude, you have to be very well prepared and, diligent and persevere.

00:52:18:14 - 00:52:22:17 Oscar Brown: That’s right. You have to. You have to. But you you and you have to ask.

00:52:22:20 - 00:52:24:29 Leonard Feather: You know, you have to demand and legislate.

00:52:25:00 - 00:52:35:28 Oscar Brown: You have to legislate and everything. You have to go there. Nobody expects American television or any other area, no economic area in America has ever opened up voluntarily. That’s right. I know you know.

00:52:35:28 - 00:52:36:25 Leonard Feather: No, it’s always been.

00:52:36:26 - 00:52:51:18 Oscar Brown: It’s always been because there’s been somebody pushing at it, pushing at it in whatever form. You know, moral force of violent force, whatever it it always goes because somebody demands, nobody opens the door. Yeah. Until it’s not.

00:52:51:20 - 00:52:52:18 Leonard Feather: That’s right.

00:52:52:21 - 00:53:10:03 Oscar Brown: All right. Now we got to not but then when and the knocking is preparation insistence. You know, say, you know, this argument that we are not qualified. That is ridiculous on its face because he’s qualified. I’m qualified. You’re qualified. They’re qualified. And we all want jobs.

00:53:10:06 - 00:53:11:11 Leonard Feather: Yeah that’s right.

00:53:11:18 - 00:53:29:24 Oscar Brown: Yeah. Okay. there’s got to be a lot more of that. among Negroes, there’s got to be a much greater stirring, you know, It goes. It goes hand in hand with that whole question of pride. Pride in yourself as a human being.

00:53:29:24 - 00:53:30:22 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:53:30:24 - 00:53:52:15 Oscar Brown: And the fact that you are a Negro human being means that you’ve had a certain kind of experience, which is a valid human experience. And that’s right. This has something to offer to the world, and the world can benefit from it. Yeah. And, you’re prepared to say it artistically, artfully and well and entertain with it, communicate with it and, touch people emotionally.

00:53:52:17 - 00:53:59:06 Oscar Brown: And if you can move people emotionally, then they move themselves intellectually. Man, change the way it feels. He’ll change the way he thinks.

00:53:59:09 - 00:54:05:05 Leonard Feather: Yeah, right. I got to show you the piece about what are you doing?

00:54:05:08 - 00:54:08:13 Oscar Brown: I will, I was, actually trying to be a songwriter.

00:54:08:16 - 00:54:11:20 Leonard Feather: Yeah, but, I mean, you were making, I was a salary in,

00:54:11:22 - 00:54:39:24 Oscar Brown: Well, my father is in the real estate business, and my father is, living monument to redemptive love. He he, is, just a beautiful man. And, he gave me chances. Yeah, yeah. You really need help. You know, you can’t, you can’t write a play. You can’t try to write a musical after you get home from some eight hour a day gig.

00:54:39:24 - 00:55:01:05 Oscar Brown: I don’t care what. Yeah. Running is, Yeah. so, I would do real estate work. I try to take some of the load off of him and his daily routine of things. I was never very enthusiastic about selling real estate. I like him better, live in a house, but I don’t care which. And I don’t want to sell the houses, but, he was a guess.

00:55:01:05 - 00:55:14:05 Oscar Brown: I mean, you know, he was just he went along with a program that was really a speculation, a wild speculation. But if you don’t have that kind of help. Yeah, some, you know, for some people, he’s got to be a forward foundation.

00:55:14:08 - 00:55:14:18 Leonard Feather: yeah.

00:55:14:18 - 00:55:17:03 Oscar Brown: Something. Sure. But you got to get.

00:55:17:03 - 00:55:18:12 Leonard Feather: Some money, you know, knowledge. So.

00:55:18:14 - 00:55:45:28 Oscar Brown: You know, I have a sister, a younger sister. She’s not in this business. Pathway. My family’s very tight. My sister lives across the hall with me. and, my cousins live under her and my sister in law lives around, pretty close. We’ve been close down through the years. Cousins, brothers and sisters. And so. So, I was in the real estate business.

00:55:46:01 - 00:55:54:12 Oscar Brown: only in, part. Most of the time I was spending my time upstairs in the office working on kicks in company.

00:55:54:16 - 00:55:56:26 Leonard Feather: Yeah, working on another song.

00:55:56:28 - 00:56:20:17 Oscar Brown: And running down every possibility of getting out of the real estate business. Yeah. Seem to pop up. Yeah. There are always, you know, carrots. There would be something. Just when I would get depressed and feel, I didn’t have anything to show for it. I’d have some that thing to show for it, you know? Yeah. The recording of Strong Man by Habit was a big thing to show for.

00:56:20:17 - 00:56:39:11 Oscar Brown: Yeah, yeah, a positive event. Yeah. A singer who has sung a song I wrote on record and I never got a quote out of it, but, probably not. That wasn’t the value to be secured from that song at that point. Symbolically. Right. Because it stood me in good stead much later. You know, it introduced me like to Cannonball.

00:56:39:11 - 00:56:53:25 Oscar Brown: That’ll be. I remember when I went up, I went up to Cannonball and said, my name’s Oscar Brown: and he’s playing a and he said, well, I’m hip to you guys. Good dog. Strong man. That is like three years later, you know. Yeah. So then I said, well, do you have anything to which I missed a lyric.

00:56:53:27 - 00:57:12:29 Oscar Brown: So they jumped up on stage and played work song now work songs been recorded by Nina Simone, Billy Eckstine and Tennessee Ernie Ford. It’s coming out. It’s, Tommy Hunt has a rock and roll version of it, you know? So that’s a you never know what you’re. Yeah, yeah. That’s interesting.

00:57:12:29 - 00:57:16:27 Leonard Feather: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Getting a recording is,

00:57:16:29 - 00:57:30:18 Oscar Brown: So so it was, it was a big step, was a big step for me. And there were always some things happening at it. Yeah.