Ben Pollack Interview [transcript]

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:55:03 Leonard Feather: And once again. Greetings and modulations. This is Leonard Feather. And this evening, instead of my regular survey of recent record releases, I’m very happy to have with me a very distinguished guest, a gentleman who has occupied a most important place in the history of jazz and probably has just about as many distinguished alumni as almost anybody I could name.

00:00:55:06 - 00:01:05:26 Leonard Feather: I’ll introduce him first, and we’ll talk a little and play a few records and just do anything that comes to mind. Completely informal session. So I’ll just say hello first of all, to the one and only Ben Pollack.

00:01:06:00 - 00:01:06:28 Ben Pollack: All right. Leonard.

00:01:07:00 - 00:01:08:29 Leonard Feather: Good to see you again, Ben. It’s been quite a while.

00:01:09:02 - 00:01:10:09 Ben Pollack: Yes, quite a while.

00:01:10:12 - 00:01:18:05 Leonard Feather: And it’s been a lot of things happening in music, as you well know. And you’re still in the field. I guess you just couldn’t couldn’t resist the temptation to get back in.

00:01:18:08 - 00:01:24:11 Ben Pollack: Oh, every now and then I get the urge. So I do it until I get tired and I make take a rest and start again.

00:01:24:13 - 00:01:48:16 Leonard Feather: First and foremost, I’d like to mention the fact, which is very relevant at the moment, that Ben is appearing with his own group, a bright little sextet at the Hollywood Knickerbocker Hotel in the new Jamboree room, where he’s appearing every night except Sunday. And he will be there indefinitely. But that doesn’t mean it should be postponed indefinitely, because it’ll be fun to go by that right away and hear Ben Pollack with, among others.

00:01:48:18 - 00:01:57:13 Ben Pollack: Well, there’s Warren Smith on trombone, Jean Bolen on clarinet, Bill Campbell on piano. Well, a lot of the old gang up and back.

00:01:57:13 - 00:01:59:17 Leonard Feather: And who was the bass player?

00:01:59:19 - 00:02:02:26 Ben Pollack: Oh, God, I can’t think. Well, well, are you older? Yeah.

00:02:02:26 - 00:02:04:26 Leonard Feather: Well. Oh, that’s right. I know he’s one of my clients name.

00:02:04:27 - 00:02:06:10 Ben Pollack: I have such a tough time. He was in the.

00:02:06:10 - 00:02:13:29 Leonard Feather: Old Woody Herman band. Wasn’t sure. And Warren Smith, I know from the Bob Crosby Band and many others. That’s a very young Mickey Bloem. That’s right.

00:02:13:29 - 00:02:14:26 Ben Pollack: But his brothers with us.

00:02:14:26 - 00:02:32:24 Leonard Feather: Yeah, I know Mickey from way back, too. I was down there last night and I heard tunes like Sentimental Journey. the whole thing was really a sentimental journey for me, you understand? Start with some barbecue and we’ll have rain blues. And, then I know that, you’ve been interested in all the phases of music as they come along.

00:02:32:24 - 00:02:35:28 Leonard Feather: Have you been keeping up with what’s been happening lately? Over.

00:02:36:01 - 00:02:45:07 Ben Pollack: Well, I’m starting to, but my wife told me the other day about this new new deal, bossa nova. She says. She says somebody must have heard you and your beat.

00:02:45:09 - 00:02:46:01 Leonard Feather: Know the.

00:02:46:01 - 00:02:51:20 Ben Pollack: Beat that you’ve been known for years. So I haven’t heard it, but, I certainly like to hear one if you’ve got one.

00:02:51:20 - 00:03:06:00 Leonard Feather: Well, let’s see now, have I got one? You know, some. I’ve got so many bossa nova albums coming out of my ears now. We’ve been playing intermittently some of these bossa nova things on the show, and I’d be very happy to play you one that I, that I think is typical. I’m just trying to make up my mind, which is the most typical.

00:03:06:00 - 00:03:07:07 Leonard Feather: That’s very hard to decide.

00:03:07:07 - 00:03:09:15 Ben Pollack: Are your knowledge started the same? You know.

00:03:09:18 - 00:03:37:13 Leonard Feather: That’s very hard to say. It began really by being take it by being a combination of elements that were already in part in Brazilian folk music, combined with some of the harmonic ideas and rhythmic concepts of American jazz. In other words, when they heard certain records down there by for example, or in the Iron Maiden, Bud Shank, who did some Brazilian jazz things up here, and also records by Dizzy Gillespie, the one note Samba by Shorty Rogers.

00:03:37:13 - 00:03:44:14 Leonard Feather: And I think that’s reasonably typical. It might not be completely authentic in the Brazilian sense, but it gives you an idea of the rhythm and the overall sound.

00:03:44:16 - 00:03:53:28 Ben Pollack: Yeah, it’s a little camouflage. what’s been going on? it’s a syncopated, beat with a delayed action the second time around.

00:03:54:03 - 00:03:56:17 Leonard Feather: Yeah. You mean that was the clave thing? Yeah.

00:03:56:18 - 00:03:58:13 Ben Pollack: That,

00:03:58:15 - 00:04:08:29 Leonard Feather: Yeah, that’s a good song. And I’m not tired of it yet, although I think it’s. I put out as many albums as they seem to be putting out. If this continues for a long time, they’re really going to flood the market, which is what happens with the.

00:04:09:03 - 00:04:11:20 Ben Pollack: Dance itself and different dancers. Well, and what’s been.

00:04:11:20 - 00:04:28:26 Leonard Feather: Going, I don’t know much about the dance. There really wasn’t any dance when it came to this country or when it started in Brazil. But since it’s been inaugurated here and has been such a tremendous success with the Stan Getz album, actually I, I should have played you something out of Stan’s album, because that was the really big hit, one of the whole thing that started this whole trend.

00:04:28:28 - 00:04:47:20 Leonard Feather: I think that they just devised a dance to go with it because they felt it needed a dance to keep it going commercially. And, the Fred Astaire Dance Studios have supposedly created a dance, and they’ve tied up with, people that made one of the records, the Zoot Sims, and a giving demonstrations and playing the racket and so forth.

00:04:47:24 - 00:04:59:16 Leonard Feather: So I don’t know what the bossa nova dances like, but it is not an essential adjunct of the music, really. The music just sprang up from a natural combination of these Brazilian and American jazz elements.

00:04:59:19 - 00:05:02:19 Ben Pollack: Oh, we’ll have to dream on up and down a Dixieland band.

00:05:02:21 - 00:05:05:26 Leonard Feather: Well, I could have done my.

00:05:05:26 - 00:05:09:25 Ben Pollack: Own mambo Dixie was a very big record. One of the biggest records that, well.

00:05:09:25 - 00:05:21:19 Leonard Feather: For that matter, back in the very early days of, jazz, it was more or less equated with dance music. I would imagine that the Original Dixieland band itself. You going to go that far back? Played for dancing?

00:05:21:19 - 00:05:22:06 Ben Pollack: Oh, sure.

00:05:22:07 - 00:05:26:29 Leonard Feather: Rather than for listening. I think the idea of jazz exclusively for listening is funny.

00:05:27:01 - 00:05:42:08 Ben Pollack: It’s funny thing you mentioned Dixieland. Everybody seems to think that just listening music, but it was always, dance music. And, now the Knickerbocker, we, we play Dixieland. Of course we don’t go. And those flag wavers, those little crazy Dixieland one steps and things.

00:05:42:14 - 00:05:44:17 Leonard Feather: No, but I notice on the floor people were dancing.

00:05:44:20 - 00:05:50:10 Ben Pollack: They’re dancing, and I love it. Like one fella says the other night. He says it’s the first time I’ve enjoyed dancing since 1935.

00:05:50:12 - 00:05:50:18 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:05:50:18 - 00:06:00:26 Ben Pollack: That’s wild. So I think it’s coming back pretty strong. And, with the Dixieland bands, which is the American real dance beat, dance music. Yeah, this might be. It might be the time.

00:06:01:03 - 00:06:04:12 Leonard Feather: Dixieland has reached a stage now where its appeal is so broad.

00:06:04:15 - 00:06:12:07 Ben Pollack: Well, as long as you don’t play the cornball Dixieland, you know, the old sliding trombone. I never did go in for them, mom. I always went in for more of a musical type of Dixieland.

00:06:12:07 - 00:06:32:26 Leonard Feather: Yeah, I didn’t mean that. I mean just the typical Dixieland as played by, say, your group or any group in that style. has really reached a stage where you don’t have to be an inside person to know what’s going on. At one time, I think that was almost as esoteric to some people as, let’s say, John Coltrane is somebody like that today.

00:06:32:28 - 00:06:48:21 Leonard Feather: It was really considered this very specialized falling music and the American public at large, in spite of a lot of publicity, generally speaking, didn’t go for that much. I think at the time that you had your first big band, you were probably one of the very few bands that had a pretty much of a jazz policy.

00:06:48:22 - 00:06:49:25 Ben Pollack: That’s right. You know.

00:06:49:28 - 00:07:13:07 Leonard Feather: And I suppose I should go through for some of the younger listeners that don’t know the list of alumni that I mentioned a few minutes ago, I said he has a Ben Pollack has the longest list of alumni in town, but, they include and you better fill me in then, because you’ve got it at your fingertips. Of course, Glenn Miller, of course, Benny Goodman and Harry James and, Freddie Slack and all.

00:07:13:07 - 00:07:13:23 Leonard Feather: You take it from.

00:07:13:23 - 00:07:14:08 Ben Pollack: Jack.

00:07:14:11 - 00:07:15:00 Leonard Feather: Jack Teagarden.

00:07:15:02 - 00:07:20:22 Ben Pollack: Teagarden. The old Bob Crosby Bobcats is practically my old man. Yes, back in 35.

00:07:20:24 - 00:07:34:12 Leonard Feather: Yeah. When the Ben Pollack band, was disbanded in 1935, most of the members became. Just a few months or a year later, the featured soloist with the original Bob Crosby Orchestra that is Eddie Miller and Matty Matlock. And,

00:07:34:15 - 00:07:36:28 Ben Pollack: You do them on your own.

00:07:37:00 - 00:07:42:20 Leonard Feather: And when you. Ben gave up, drums for a while to conduct, it was Rubber Duck that took over as a drummer, I know.

00:07:42:22 - 00:08:00:24 Ben Pollack: Well, that was the style. And, you had to stand up in front of a band and, direct, because many times I used to lean over the drums at me and say, what time is Mr. Pollack make his appearance? Although I wrote coat, and that became quite a thing. So, up in front of the band, I went, and Ray was about the closest drummer to my particular style of playing.

00:08:00:26 - 00:08:07:02 Ben Pollack: And then a thing married about 1934, 35. And Benny come in. the orchestra leader playing his instrument.

00:08:07:04 - 00:08:13:14 Leonard Feather: Yeah. The swing era sort of brought in the idea of the concept of a virtuoso soloist as the front man.

00:08:13:14 - 00:08:19:23 Ben Pollack: I don’t believe that you ever knew this, but Ted Mack The Amateur Hour was my original saxophone player out there. You know.

00:08:19:25 - 00:08:22:28 Leonard Feather: For heaven’s sake, I certainly didn’t know that.

00:08:22:28 - 00:08:29:16 Ben Pollack: But Lucas worked with me. And when a lot of guys that I like completely forgot to mention and write up some stuff that.

00:08:29:19 - 00:08:36:10 Leonard Feather: Well, I imagine there’ll be a lot of, these details brought into your biography, which, I heard mentioned the other day when you were on another show.

00:08:36:10 - 00:08:49:02 Ben Pollack: We’re starting, starting to tape it now, and, of course, I’ve, I’ve forgotten a lot of things, but, every time I bump in Eddie Miller and Matty or any of the guys, they bring up things that I had completely forgotten. Very laughable things. Very funny things.

00:08:49:02 - 00:08:54:25 Leonard Feather: Yeah, that should be just a matter of getting together and reminiscing. And you could come up with a hell of a book, and I’m sure you will.

00:08:54:27 - 00:09:12:10 Ben Pollack: Who’s writing it with you on a wall? I want it to be authentic. I don’t want this. these guys come up. I have to have it written a few different times, and you’ll sit for a couple of hours and talk to these fellows, and I’ll come in with a script that isn’t you, you know? Yeah, sure. And I think the life was commercial enough that it doesn’t have to be changed.

00:09:12:10 - 00:09:20:01 Ben Pollack: And if we can do a lot of behind the scenes things without getting sued, it’ll be great.

00:09:20:04 - 00:09:30:11 Leonard Feather: No, I, I there’s certain things that, undoubtedly you can’t tell. You would have to hide the names to protect the guilty. But, in general, I’m sure there’s a great deal you can tell in the way that.

00:09:30:12 - 00:09:41:11 Ben Pollack: The, Glenn Miller picture was great and made a lot of money. There’s a lot of things that should have been brought out that were never brought out, that I think would have enhanced the picture. And, of course, a Benny Goodman picture.

00:09:41:14 - 00:09:53:19 Leonard Feather: Was a Benny Goodman picture, even though you had a role in it, I must say I felt it had some good moments musically, and it had some accurate moments historically, but an awful lot of inaccuracies, an awful lot of omissions.

00:09:53:19 - 00:10:00:07 Ben Pollack: Oh, what was that? It was a way off. It was a way off from its real, especially as early life that I was familiar with.

00:10:00:08 - 00:10:03:19 Leonard Feather: Yeah. And Hollywood has a way of doing those things, I think.

00:10:03:19 - 00:10:09:26 Ben Pollack: Well, yeah. Just don’t let them, you know, who is so great that they know what commercialism is?

00:10:09:28 - 00:10:27:23 Leonard Feather: Well, sometimes it you know, it pays off better to be not to try to be commercial, to do a thing. More often than not, I would like to believe it pays off to do a thing as you believe in it and authentically. And I think if they’d made a Benny Goodman story as it was, and, I don’t think it mattered too much that Steve Allen played the role.

00:10:27:23 - 00:10:43:10 Leonard Feather: He didn’t do a bad job, and at least they had Benny playing the soundtrack. But I think if the thing had been historically the way things really well, yeah, yeah. At for example, the thing, where where Benny Goodman, Howard Teddy Wilson, broke down the race line. They completely ignore that in the picture. They just showed Negroes in the band as if it were a natural thing.

00:10:43:15 - 00:10:49:27 Leonard Feather: That was a really letting out one of the most important facts of Benny’s career. And they just skipped.

00:10:49:27 - 00:10:59:02 Ben Pollack: Over so much about Benny that they left that in his early life. That would have been so much more interesting, more commercial in the end. But you can’t tell, Hollywood.

00:10:59:04 - 00:10:59:28 Ben Pollack: Well.

00:11:00:02 - 00:11:03:01 Ben Pollack: That’s why I’ve waited this long. Well, if you’re right or I ain’t going to do it.

00:11:03:01 - 00:11:08:29 Leonard Feather: If your book does as well as I’m sure it deserves to, and they make the Ben Pollack story, you better be damn sure that you supervise.

00:11:08:29 - 00:11:12:16 Ben Pollack: Everything. Well, this is for sure. Else it could have been made right after the Miller picture.

00:11:12:16 - 00:11:13:10 Leonard Feather: But yeah.

00:11:13:10 - 00:11:27:25 Ben Pollack: I didn’t want that particular writer to to do it. And, because he, he dreams altogether different than I do. And, and I think the thing I’d like to start right at the very beginning, when I was two years old, which Hollywood isn’t in favor of.

00:11:27:28 - 00:11:28:19 Leonard Feather: Is,

00:11:28:21 - 00:11:47:27 Ben Pollack: That’s when my dad told me, you know, right down to it, I was going to be a drummer. That’s very interesting that way. That’s why he brought it out. And, as the 20s and the 30s, the old Chicago, the hoodlum era and all that, I was there, you know, and and, we can come up with a lot of real, authentic things.

00:11:47:28 - 00:12:05:17 Leonard Feather: I’m sure you can. Well, meanwhile, Ben, I’d like to. Of course. I’m going to get to some of your own records in a little while, but I’d like to play a couple of sides by 1 or 2 of your alumni. And I wondered if you’d heard this album, which I haven’t had a chance to play on the show yet, but mainly because there are so many new releases that, I never have a chance to get everything in.

00:12:05:19 - 00:12:28:22 Leonard Feather: But the Benny Goodman in Moscow album came out and, you know, I went to Moscow and was that Benny Goodman there? Which was a fascinating experience. And these are actual on the spot recordings of the first performances of any American jazz band in Soviet Union. and, and here there are some things that are the old standards, of course, like, Mission to Moscow and, well, let’s say goodbye, of course.

00:12:28:22 - 00:12:41:16 Leonard Feather: The closing theme, Avalon World, is waiting for the sunrise. And a lot of other things that Benny’s associated with for many years. But there are also some new things, a couple of recent compositions. So I’d like to play one of the new things and one of the standards. If I may.

00:12:41:19 - 00:12:42:28 Ben Pollack: This was recorded in Moscow.

00:12:42:29 - 00:12:45:28 Leonard Feather: This was actually recorded in in the last week of the tour in.

00:12:45:28 - 00:12:47:03 Ben Pollack: My I don’t Take It Out and.

00:12:47:09 - 00:13:08:03 Leonard Feather: Oh yes, Georgia Vacuum of RCA Victor went over there and supervised the dates and they had stereo equipment. And, at first there was some trouble with the cooperation, but ultimately they were very cooperative and, and let him go right ahead and do anything he wanted to. And, the tracks that I’m going to play are the first ones on the third of these four sides, as an original by the fella who played piano in the band.

00:13:08:03 - 00:13:35:02 Leonard Feather: He had, you know, Teddy Wilson played piano. The sextet been in the orchestra. They had John Bunch, who was also a very good composer. This is an original by John Bunch, obviously dedicated to, Ralph Gleason. It’s called feathers. And then there’s, the sixth and septet number, new version of, one of Benny’s older hits on the Alamo, which features, Joe Newman on trumpet and Zoot Sims on tenor sax and the rhythm section.

00:13:35:08 - 00:13:43:07 Leonard Feather: So I play those two tracks by the Benny Goodman Orchestra, and then we’ll get back in just a moment to more discussions of more of your alumni.

00:13:43:09 - 00:14:06:13 Ben Pollack: Yeah.

00:14:06:15 - 00:14:23:14 Ben Pollack: Of.

00:14:23:17 - 00:14:28:02 Ben Pollack: Of.

00:14:28:04 - 00:14:38:17 Ben Pollack: Columbia. Some of the other.

00:14:38:19 - 00:15:08:19 Ben Pollack: People.

00:15:08:21 - 00:15:14:16 Ben Pollack: In the.

00:15:14:18 - 00:16:00:19 Ben Pollack: Group.

00:16:00:21 - 00:16:06:28 Ben Pollack: Thomas.

00:16:20:01 - 00:16:32:03 Ben Pollack: Hey!

00:16:32:05 - 00:16:43:06 Leonard Feather: There.

00:16:43:08 - 00:16:51:20 Leonard Feather: Now, the Benny Goodman septet.

00:16:51:22 - 00:16:57:17 Unknown And.

00:17:15:03 - 00:18:02:01 Unknown He. He. You know.

00:18:02:03 - 00:18:08:12 Unknown He.

00:18:08:14 - 00:18:12:11 Ben Pollack: Had you.

00:18:12:13 - 00:18:18:13 Ben Pollack: Know.

00:18:18:16 - 00:18:32:06 Unknown Heard. From,

00:18:32:09 - 00:18:53:16 Unknown Anybody who. Played.

00:18:53:19 - 00:19:24:24 Unknown Hey. I.

00:19:24:27 - 00:20:29:20 Unknown Know.

00:20:29:22 - 00:21:12:19 Unknown Who.

00:21:12:22 - 00:21:50:05 Unknown He.

00:21:50:08 - 00:21:56:21 Unknown He.

00:21:56:23 - 00:22:00:07 Unknown He.

00:22:00:10 - 00:22:15:27 Unknown He. Yeah. And he. He.

00:22:15:29 - 00:22:40:18 Leonard Feather: We heard two tracks out of the Benny Goodman in Moscow album. The first by the big band and original by Benny’s pianist John Bunch, entitled feathers, that featured Willie on trombone and I think the trumpet solo by Joe Newman. And the second track was by an octet featuring Benny, with Zoot Sims on tenor. Victor Feldman vibes, Joe Newman trumpet, and the rhythm section had Teddy Lewis, Teddy Wilson piano.

00:22:40:18 - 00:23:04:29 Leonard Feather: Turk Von Lake guitar, Mel Lewis drums and Bill Crow on bass. Now that is a fairly typical example, then, of what happened with Benny Goodman in Moscow. I’d like to ask you, and I’d like to get some very frank answers. Do you think a that, this music represented American jazz? Well, for the first band that we sent over there, how do you think many sound compared with the days when you know all the big band?

00:23:04:29 - 00:23:08:11 Ben Pollack: The big band sounded wonderful, but to me, that’s not good. You see.

00:23:08:11 - 00:23:09:14 Leonard Feather: I know,

00:23:09:16 - 00:23:27:24 Ben Pollack: Naturally, you got to keep up. But when you have a name as big as Goodman, they want to hear. The general public wants to hear Goodman as he was. The big mistake we always made was trying to. We make a reputation playing a certain way, and they want to tune us in and know who we are without our name being announced.

00:23:27:29 - 00:23:32:19 Ben Pollack: That was always a trick. Glenn Miller finally, this is what he said he was going to do.

00:23:32:21 - 00:23:33:12 Leonard Feather: I know what you mean.

00:23:33:12 - 00:23:36:17 Ben Pollack: Which I advise him. I says, if you can stand playing the same way.

00:23:37:14 - 00:23:45:27 Ben Pollack: Yes. And you click on something, just stick with that if you can stand it, I never could. I had to the minute I heard a band that was getting near us, we’d go further, you know.

00:23:45:27 - 00:23:46:13 Leonard Feather: Yeah.

00:23:46:16 - 00:24:06:12 Ben Pollack: The big band and Goodman I like to hear as Goodman, plays the band, the arrangements are very modern, very up, very great. Of course, I’d rather hear buddy DeFranco in front of a band like that, you know? Yeah, it just it’s like trying to put a Ford Tire on a Cadillac. It just doesn’t fit. Yeah. and.

00:24:06:12 - 00:24:23:07 Leonard Feather: Actually, I should make this clear. I might have given you a wrong impression by playing that particular track, because a lot of the things that Benny did over there were more typical of what people have heard from him through the years. Like, you know, King part of stomp and, Mission to Moscow, which was a pile thing written 20 years ago and so forth.

00:24:23:07 - 00:24:30:03 Leonard Feather: But it’s just that, a certain proportion of them, especially for the album, had to be no things, because you can’t, you know, how many versions can you put on a record at.

00:24:30:03 - 00:24:51:10 Ben Pollack: The same time? And of course, Benny, I think is just a little bit stale. yeah. I always felt, you know, even when we made the picture, he was floundering a little bit unlicensed there and trying to, stay up with the times and kind of throw him. And I think that Benny as well as myself, I do it.

00:24:51:11 - 00:25:04:24 Ben Pollack: I go around the jam with the boys. He said, do it for about a month. Just get around and smell that smoke. Get that atmosphere and get with it and loosen up. Benny just sounds stiff, like he’s in practice and legit too much.

00:25:04:26 - 00:25:09:17 Leonard Feather: I think that’s very true. A lot of people have made that suggestion that they can’t.

00:25:09:17 - 00:25:16:14 Ben Pollack: And they can’t tell me that he can’t play anymore. No, because this guy can play. He wrote, he wrote. It’s bought and paid for it, you know.

00:25:16:16 - 00:25:17:04 Leonard Feather: No, but it’s.

00:25:17:04 - 00:25:30:29 Ben Pollack: Just being a little bit stale and and being in the wrong environment. He’s on Park Avenue all the time now. He ought to get down there with the kids and and blows it in with all the different guys with different styles and blow up on them and get relaxed. He just sounds like he’s tight.

00:25:31:01 - 00:25:54:01 Leonard Feather: I couldn’t agree with you more. I feel that if he were to do that, he could come up with some wonderful things. I mean, at one point, Artie Shaw, whom I respect a great deal, he’s not in the music world anymore. But the last time he did play, about 1955, when he had a Gramercy Five group that played at the embers, he really did try to get the feeling of the younger musicians and, go along with their ideas, and you could hear it in his playing.

00:25:54:01 - 00:26:07:22 Leonard Feather: It was a little more modern than it was before, and I see no reason why Benny should not retain the enthusiasm and the fire, and it retain his old essential ideas, but still get a little bit more of the of the drive that, you could get from being around the right people there.

00:26:07:22 - 00:26:24:23 Ben Pollack: As long as he comes back, I know it every now and then in the plan. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t take advantage of it by getting out of him. And, well, let’s practice it. Seasoning. You get stale. You’ve got to get out and get around and see what the other guy is doing and and sit in there and play and these new things come to you.

00:26:24:23 - 00:26:30:15 Ben Pollack: We’ve been doing them for years. It’s just that, oh, we don’t do enough playing it to keep up. You know.

00:26:30:17 - 00:26:47:12 Leonard Feather: Strange part is that he had all these modern kids in the band. He had, well, kids are not, actually, because they’ve been around a little while, but they’re modern, essentially. That is like Zoot Sims on tenor and Joe Newman on trumpet. Phil was on alto and, 2 or 3 others that the trombone players were all modern soloists, but he didn’t really listen to them.

00:26:47:12 - 00:26:53:17 Leonard Feather: I think when they were playing, he was probably humming to himself. I was thinking of something else, you know, so he wasn’t really absorbing anything that was going on around.

00:26:53:17 - 00:27:13:27 Ben Pollack: I’ll tell you, Leonard, his tone quality and his, his style of play. I don’t think if he played as great as he used to play, I think he played better when he was a kid than he ever played. Yeah, but I still don’t think it would fit at his best. I don’t think it would fit with this particular type of, background.

00:27:13:27 - 00:27:16:24 Ben Pollack: It just. You can’t. You can’t put it together.

00:27:16:27 - 00:27:17:15 Leonard Feather: No. That’s it.

00:27:17:20 - 00:27:19:03 Ben Pollack: It doesn’t fit.

00:27:19:05 - 00:27:41:05 Leonard Feather: Anyhow, I’m glad we, we got your comments on. I think you’ll find that there are a lot of other, at least interesting and provocative things in the album. I’d like to play some more later on, but, we’re going to pause momentarily for station identification. This is the nation’s first all jazz station.